I'm worried about the future.

  • >

    > I assume he meant Fusion 3.

    >

    >

    >

    I wouldn't say Fusion is the grandfather of 2D game engines sorry.

    It's not the grandfather of 2d game engine, but it is the grandfather of the event sheet that construct is using - and visual programming in general

    Heck, ashley even wrote plugins for it prior to creating construct.

    Clickteam devs got upset when construct came out- with the obvious similarities. They got really butthurt and still are. This time around they are coming out with an editor and engine that takes care of all of the reasons people moved away from fusion to use construct .They have even stated on their forum that they will later this year reveal news about fusion3 that will make construct users happy. So you can see that they know about construct and are actively competing

    Out of the three Godot is the one that is actually most powerful, but it is also the one that requires more investment of time to learn.

    With the changes Juan added to gdscript, the language has become piss easy though- you can make a platformer movement with animations and input in about 40-50 lines of code.Godot devs don't give a crap about any of the other 2 engines, they just keep adding and fixing stuff

    We can talk about it, but things will be most obvious when all three are out and about.

    I believe that all three will be successful in their own way - construct3 may be driving away some users due to the licensing and the cloud, but in the process it will acquire new users that like that kinda stuff

  • A little history of game design software:

    Early game creation systems such as Broderbund's The Arcade Machine (1982), Pinball Construction Set (1983), ASCII's War Game Construction Kit (1983),[4] Thunder Force Construction (1984),[5] Adventure Construction Set (1984), Garry Kitchen's GameMaker (1985), Wargame Construction Set (1986), Shoot'Em-Up Construction Kit (1987), Mamirin / Dungeon Manjirou (1988), and Arcade Game Construction Kit (1988) appeared in the 1980s on home computers. 3D Construction Kit was released on the ZX Spectrum in 1991, and contained a full polygon-based world creation tool. Most of these early design frameworks are specific to one or another genre.

    In 1990s, game creation systems for the IBM PC shifted both to the more general and the more specific. Whereas frameworks like RSD Game-Maker and Klik & Play attempted to accommodate any genre, communities grew around games like ZZT (later, MegaZeux[6]) that permitted such extensive user modification that they essentially became de facto game creation systems. Pie in the Sky Software created a full on 2.5D first-person shooter creator out of an engine they previously used internally, which sold in three total versions until 2003.

    Later in the mid-2000s, with the growth of the World Wide Web and social networking, programs like BlitzBasic and Multimedia Fusion headlined an explosion of interest both in indie games and in canned game design software.[citation needed] Whereas earlier game creation systems tend to err on the side of user friendly interfaces,[7] 21st-century systems are often distinguished by extensive scripting languages that attempt to account for every possible user variable.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_creation_system

  • A little history of game design software:

    Early game creation systems such as Broderbund's The Arcade Machine (1982), Pinball Construction Set (1983), ASCII's War Game Construction

    ...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_creation_system

    Clickteam created the event sheet - visual programming via an event sheet - they did it in the 90ies with Klik and Play.

    Reusable objects that populate the event sheet

  • > A little history of game design software:

    >

    > Early game creation systems such as Broderbund's The Arcade Machine (1982), Pinball Construction Set (1983), ASCII's War Game Construction

    > ...

    >

    > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_creation_system

    >

    Clickteam created the event sheet - visual programming via an event sheet.

    Reusable objects that populate the event sheet

    Well you are welcome to your opinion but before Clickteam was even around there were game engines packing coding into easily called routines that are events.

    Trying to claim one is the grandfather is pretty ridiculous in my opinion. They are all extensions of BASIC and MS-DOS and other languages.

    BUT then I am probably quite bit older than most of you and designed games using those languages and observed the progression of game design engines up close and personal.

  • Well you are welcome to your opinion but before Clickteam was even around there were game engines packing coding into easily called routines that are events.

    Trying to claim one is the grandfather is pretty ridiculous in my opinion. They are all extensions of BASIC and MS-DOS and other languages.

    Basic and dos did not have an event sheet.

    You seem to not be getting my point about visual programming at all - nobody claims that clickteam invented game engines or programming languages.

    http://media.moddb.com/images/engines/1 ... 86_003.png

    this is the event sheet in klik and play

    • the left column is conditions, the right is actions

    it also has the event editor

    http://www.clickteam.com/creation_mater ... /sshot_(17).Png

    You add them to cells by right clicking and selecting items - just like construct

    this was created long before construct, but construct perfected it with the event sheet - by adding sub events and replacing the tick marks with event editor type cells. Scirra also added proper functions that take parameters in place of fusion 2.5's limited fastloops.

    Clickteam has now made it so you can switch to event sheet mode in fusion 3 - similar to construct's. Also added sub events and functions that can take parameters

    http://www.clickteam.com/wp-content/upl ... ntList.gif

    http://www.clickteam.com/wp-content/upl ... Toggle.gif

    http://www.clickteam.com/wp-content/upl ... 52x264.png

    They have remade the entire fusion engine from scratch to modernize it

    They have also added some tricks to code reusal that remind me of how godot handles scene inheritance

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  • > Grandfather? For me it is Klik&Play, I used it so much back in mid 90s something. It is same company as the Fusion now and you can see similarity still.

    >

    > And as for drag&drop game maker, it is too limiting in my humble opinion and would just make cookie cutter games. Again, in my opinion. Of course if you are going to make pretty graphics and have basic game idea that is same as existing then it will work.

    >

    > But if you have novel idea (of new game style/engine) it will be very limiting quickly.

    >

    What do you think you do with C2 but use built in effects and behaviors that they designed in?

    You just set the effect and behaviors and the engine does the rest. You don't create new effects or behaviors in C2 just use them through the settings.

    That is just a natural progression to where game design is headed.

    Actually there are some people that won't use any ready-made behaviour at all for the game engine (movements, logic).

    What I like with construct2's event sheets is that you can make quite advanced coding there. (I just wish that there's alternative output other than HTML5, native exporters etc etc but this is futile wish)

  • > I foresee the future to be drag and drop 2D and 3D game creation.

    >

    > You will choose from a plethora of of 2D or 3D characters and objects with pre-programmed but modifiable behaviors and effects and you will choose your layout, effects and scenery and type of game and just drop them in place and the engine does the rest.

    >

    > No event scripting and just modify object settings for how you want them to behave.

    > ...

    > ...

    > That would open up game design to many more artists that have no interest in programming or writing events.

    >

    Next thing you know is we'll have a game engine app that only requires you to push a button to make an awesome game and it'll do it. No other effort needed.

    If you are as old as I am and designed games using programming languages like BASIC then today's engines are an example of your button to create a great game scenario.

    The engines took all the hard work out of creating coding routines and hides them in the background so people can concentrate on the artistic factors without even understanding the codes that make the game work.

    As we move forward more artistic people with no programming experience and no desire to learn event scripting will become involved in game design and the engines will accommodate by integrating all event scripting into simple settings sheets. C2 is an example and all sprite behaviors and effects are set through a settings selection list.

    That will be enhanced in future game engines with lots of new effects and behaviors and event scripting will be simplified to the point any creative person can create great games.

    Amazon released Lumberyard it's own game engine with that in mind.

    ADDED: Tooting my own horn here to provide an example of visual game design. In my signature is a link to my platform sandbox. Still early Beta but with that anyone can create a very playable platform game by just dragging and dropping components and effect change boxes on to the playfield.

    No event scripting and it is all visual game design. I will be adding more effects and behaviors as I progress but you can add day and night, rain and snow and set enemies to move where you want. The plan is to have a simple settings box so more advanced designers can tweak sprite settings to do just what they want. I will also add the ability to upload your own sprites and tiles so artists can go crazy.

    That is where I see game design engines going.

  • lamar

    The problem with relying too much on out of the box type engines is that all the games using them are cookie cutter stuff. If you are a fan of that stuff - perhaps you might like rpg maker. It still supports plugins - very similarly to construct2 - written in javascript.

    But all games made with it - look like they are made with it.

    With the case of a level editor type engines - it is obviously a level editor. That is a huge difference from a game engine.

    Construct is a game engine, because you can set the design of your game and be specific.

    A level editor only allows you to set the layout of levels, not the design.

    In Construct you have reusable out of the box logic in the toolbox - game objects with builtin functions.

    But such is the case with most other game engines out there.

    Fusion 3, godot 3 and construct3 all have premade game logic that the programmer can use to build custom games design. Out of the three Godot has the largest number of objects - called nodes there.

  • lamar

    The problem with relying too much on out of the box type engines is that all the games using them are cookie cutter stuff. If you are a fan of that stuff - perhaps you might like rpg maker. It still supports plugins - very similarly to construct2 - written in javascript.

    But all games made with it - look like they are made with it.

    With the case of a level editor type engines - it is obviously a level editor. That is a huge difference from a game engine.

    Construct is a game engine, because you can set the design of your game and be specific.

    A level editor only allows you to set the layout of levels, not the design.

    In Construct you have reusable out of the box logic in the toolbox - game objects with builtin functions.

    But such is the case with most other game engines out there.

    Fusion 3, godot 3 and construct3 all have premade game logic that the programmer can use to build custom games design. Out of the three Godot has the largest number of objects - called nodes there.

    Maybe you missed the part where I said users can upload their own sprites and tiles and tweak settings of those using a simple settings box..

    A game engine like C2 and all others do the same thing using settings for all sprites and tiles now but still requires a level of scripting events and all the code is hidden from the user while I have removed the scripting events and use C2 in the background to make it all visual design which is desired by creative people and artists.

    I believe that is the next logical progression in game design engines.

  • lamar setting sprites and how it looks like is not really game design.

    The design of the game is where you establish the rules of its world, the conditions of things to happen.

    A level editor will lock you to a genre, because the game loop can't be changed. For example you can't make a top down game with your platformer level editor. You can't add new mechanics to it - such as shooting or new types of enemy behavior.

    As a result a game made in it - is not a new game. It's just a level

  • lamar setting sprites and how it looks like is not really game design.

    The design of the game is where you establish the rules of its world, the conditions of things to happen.

    A level editor will lock you to a genre, because the game loop can't be changed. For example you can't make a top down game with your platformer level editor. You can't add new mechanics to it - such as shooting or new types of enemy behavior.

    As a result a game made in it - is not a new game. It's just a level

    You seem to be missing the big picture sorry. I can expand that same model of visual design to any game genre including RPG, shooting or something you create yourself. and that can all be packaged with one game engine like C2 running in the background.

    Because of the memory limits of the arcade my sandbox is limited to platform design but the final product will include RPG design and other genre's and all can be modified very specifically to your design desires.

    The basics of all game designs revolve around setting sprite effects and behaviors and setting the mood of the game through music, sound effects and graphics and engines are all just there to process the routine events you selected.

    ADDED: Unlike a level editor the sandbox designer will allow you to incorporate any game genre into the same game and you can start as a platformer that evolves into an RPG with side missions using first person shooting or some other genre and it will all be in the same game with smoothe transitions from one genre to another.

    It is a visual based toolbox for game designers with room to add new behaviors and effects when ever they are created for the game engine.

  • > lamar setting sprites and how it looks like is not really game design.

    > The design of the game is where you establish the rules of its world, the conditions of things to happen.

    >

    > A level editor will lock you to a genre, because the game loop can't be changed. For example you can't make a top down game with your platformer level editor. You can't add new mechanics to it - such as shooting or new types of enemy behavior.

    > As a result a game made in it - is not a new game. It's just a level

    >

    You seem to be missing the big picture sorry. I can expand that same model of visual design to any game genre including RPG, shooting or something you create yourself. and that can all be packaged with one game engine like C2 running in the background.

    Because of the memory limits of the arcade my sandbox is limited to platform design but the final product will include RPG design and other genre's and all can be modified very specifically to your design desires.

    The basics of all game designs revolve around setting sprite effects and behaviors and setting the mood of the game through music, sound effects and graphics and engines are all just there to process the routine events you selected.

    ADDED: Unlike a level editor the sandbox designer will allow you to incorporate any game genre into the same game and you can start as a platformer that evolves into an RPG with side missions using first person shooting or some other genre and it will all be in the same game with smoothe transitions from one genre to another.

    It is a visual based toolbox for game designers with room to add new behaviors and effects when ever they are created for the game engine.

    Wait there for a second. Are you by any chance talking about something you made/making?

    Is the sandbox some tool that you are building?

  • >

    > > lamar setting sprites and how it looks like is not really game design.

    > > The design of the game is where you establish the rules of its world, the conditions of things to happen.

    > >

    > > A level editor will lock you to a genre, because the game loop can't be changed. For example you can't make a top down game with your platformer level editor. You can't add new mechanics to it - such as shooting or new types of enemy behavior.

    > > As a result a game made in it - is not a new game. It's just a level

    > >

    >

    > You seem to be missing the big picture sorry. I can expand that same model of visual design to any game genre including RPG, shooting or something you create yourself. and that can all be packaged with one game engine like C2 running in the background.

    >

    > Because of the memory limits of the arcade my sandbox is limited to platform design but the final product will include RPG design and other genre's and all can be modified very specifically to your design desires.

    >

    > The basics of all game designs revolve around setting sprite effects and behaviors and setting the mood of the game through music, sound effects and graphics and engines are all just there to process the routine events you selected.

    >

    > ADDED: Unlike a level editor the sandbox designer will allow you to incorporate any game genre into the same game and you can start as a platformer that evolves into an RPG with side missions using first person shooting or some other genre and it will all be in the same game with smoothe transitions from one genre to another.

    >

    > It is a visual based toolbox for game designers with room to add new behaviors and effects when ever they are created for the game engine.

    >

    Wait there for a second. Are you by any chance talking about something you made/making?

    Is the sandbox some tool that you are building?

    I thought I made that clear in an earlier post that I am working on a visual based game sandbox now in Beta testing and that is where I see game design engines headed.

    The OP topic was the future of game design engines and I used my visual based design sandbox for an example of where I see the future of Game design headed.

    If you want to see it in action the link is in my signature and it is in the arcade and uses C2 as the background engine.

  • I'm finding it difficult to understand the relevance of this 'tit-for-tat' debate over the history of game engines to the OP.

  • zenox98 You are right, this thread is going way off topic. I wanted to say that the future is not dark, because game development is becoming more and more accessible - to OP. More choice of engines, better engines and ways to publish your game.

    lamar then jumped on the opportunity to start plugging his tool by making the point that what he is doing with it is the general direction of where things are going in gamedev.

    The truth is that OP is concerned about the licensing model of the potential that one day he will not be able to open his construct3 projects, because construct3 is a tool that exists in the cloud - and it periodically checks with scirra if the subscription is paid. Thus is one day the servers go down, his offline copy will stop working and his projects will be dead

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