Mac nodewebkit broken due to massive input delay

  • Unfortunately the true answer is Scirra developed export options (I know this has been discussed in other topics)

      It is bad enough having to rely on browsers, with their never ending inconsistencies and app breaking bugs, which is of course something we can't avoid in a product that is well HTML 5, and therefore browser reliant. But exporting to anything that is not going to run in a browser should be just as reliable as the product that we use to make the app in the first place.

    Construct2 is a very, very cool product - hands down!

      But all the export options are prone to bugs and\or never-fixed nuances - and this has the often reported problem of breaking C2 apps. In this post the problem is NW. In another post (sticky) the problem is chrome - resulting in a need to re-publish older games. Well I might be alone here but if a game runs fine at the time of release, you should only have to re-publish it to remove bugs in the game itself or because you added new features - not because a third party dependency breaks it!

    Time for Scirra to write their own export wrappers, be it for desktop or mobile devices.

      Yes it means inventing the wheel again to some degree. Yes it means taking time from adding more features to C2. Yes it won't be a small task. BUT it will definitely mean well written and robust export options that work best for Construct2. That is the confidence I believe we all have in Scirra.

    Whenever you are in a chain, you're only as good as the weakest link.

      C2's weakest link has always been and still is the export options. Relying on third party developers to deliver the most important part of your game-development cycle. Lets face it Construct2 is a fantastic tool to use for development. Well that is great for the developer, but if you want all that development to be enjoyed by others - then they have to be able to play it. Now if those third parties are breaking your very cool product - then surely it is better not to have to rely on them at all.

    At the moment history could well be written something like:

      Construct2 was a brilliant product that became nothing more than a prototype tool for developers, due to its reliance on third party tools that never produced reliable export options. After many years of waiting/hoping for real solutions, even C2's most dedicated adherents finally had to jump ship. Que sera sera....

    We would like history to be written something like this:

      After many years of dissapointing results due to reliance on third party tools, Scirra decided that the answer was in-house. Developing their own export options has resulted in their flagship product - Construct2 - being one of the most robust HTML 5 game development tools around today.
  • michael

    I think it ultimately comes down to what possible for one man to do.

    Creating in house wrappers for desktop and mobile would require an immense amount of work. It might be possible for Ashley to do it -- especially if he decided to fork some of the extant export options into C2 specific versions -- but it would mean all other new features grinding to a halt.

    He's said as much before, and it's true.

    Let's face it: shiny new features might not be as important to hardcore users as stability, better UI/workflow, and better export options...but Scirra's target markets (those who want to make a good looking game with minimal programming) are much more likely to care about shaders and shadows.

    Scirra is a small business operating off a 'pay once-own forever' model, supplemented by academic licenses (potentially lucrative, but who knows how that's going).

    They HAVE to pull in new customers. Every day, every week, every month.

    Creating and maintaining in-house wrappers equals a dearth of shiny new features. Which equals less new customers.

    No customers equals no money. No money equals game over.

    The various options have been gone over time and again, but it all boils down to hiring some additional programming help. That's not a cheap proposition. Maybe Scirra is doing well enough now to swing it. Maybe they aren't.

    One funding option would be to crowdfund the development of the dedicated exporters. I think this is an option that should be seriously considered. I understand that this goes against the 'pay-once' model in some ways, but ultimately I think there are a substantial number of people using C2 who would be willing to pitch in...especially those who are actually making part of their living off it.

    Any way you slice it though, it means bringing in external help...or maybe Ashley could hire rexrainbow to work on some shiny new plugins for a few months while he slaves away at taming the beast of the buggy webkit.

  • FYI, for the short term, anyone having this problem should sign up on github and register a comment on this thread:

    https://github.com/rogerwang/node-webkit/issues/2176

    I did (even though I'm not exporting to mac ATM).

    It's also possible to offer a 'bounty' (ie., a cash award) for the problem being corrected on Github. So, if it's a dire issue, there's that option.

    If Ashley is going to bounce it over to the node webkit devs with issues like this, C2 users need to register on Github and let their voice be heard.

  • No.

    Like I said on page 2 "Scirra is no longer a bedroom company.".

    I paid money for this product and other did as well. That means they are obligated to support every single issue I or any others are having with this product.

    I'm not going to spend my time on "some developers" websites asking or rather begging them to fix issues I have in completely different application.

    And like I said again, Node-Webkit is integral part of C2 editor. All issue related to it should be reported here and only here.

    It looks like Ashley can not understand the gravity of this situation, that people actually use this software for a living.

    If this ridiculousness will not change or if Ashley won't acknowledge this situation any time soon then no matter how I love C2 I'm sorry but I'm out.

    I simply can not rely on something that is working correctly only when the stars align and the weather is fine.

  • Creating in house wrappers for desktop and mobile would require an immense amount of work. It might be possible for Ashley to do it -- especially if he decided to fork some of the extant export options into C2 specific versions -- but it would mean all other new features grinding to a halt.

    He's said as much before, and it's true.

    Let's face it: shiny new features might not be as important to hardcore users as stability, better UI/workflow, and better export options...but Scirra's target markets (those who want to make a good looking game with minimal programming) are much more likely to care about shaders and shadows.

    It is no point having shiny new features if the end product can't be reliably shipped to your intended platform, even those who are not hardcore users will want friends to play their created work.

    As shinkan noted it is not our responsibility to lobby third party devs to fix bugs with exporters or pay someone else to do so, that responsibility lies solely with the developers of C2.

    I for one have no problem with some kind of subscription payment model, not if it means getting rid of crappy third party components.

    You simply can't keep passing the buck - if you do, the hardcore users will jump ship, and the above scenario of possible history outcomes for C2 may indeed be Que sara sera.....

  • ...

    BUT it will definitely mean well written and robust export options that work best for Construct2.

    ...

    Whenever you are in a chain, you're only as good as the weakest link.

    Do you really believe that Scirra, no matter how many employees gets, could really compete with number of contributors and man-hour spent in development of Chromium and Nodejs? And i'm just talking desktop here, i won't even touch mobile. You're getting robust as it gets in the world of javascript games.

    And that gets us to your second point i would like to address. You're always in a chain and depending on some third party software. You're using Windows, remember? Even if you go down and write in pure assembly, you still have some hardware beneath your code which is out of your control. Things are like that, get used to it.

    I paid money for this product and other did as well. That means they are obligated to support every single issue I or any others are having with this product.

    ....

    It looks like Ashley can not understand the gravity of this situation, that people actually use this software for a living.

    Unfortunately, no. They are obligated to send you an installer for their product called 'Construct 2'. That's same as arguing that when you buy a car, the producer of the car is responsible to support every issue you have with that car.

    Regarding using this software for a living, it's just your risk to take, and expect to provide solutions without first checking if they can be implemented.

    I feel like we're becoming a bunch of spoiled kids without seeing how many advanced technologies we're given to use without thinking about them. Almost every project created with C2 could fall into category of "Chrome experiments".

    And regarding NW and problems with it, my only words to you is:

    Fork it, read the source, identify your bugs, fix em and continue with your game. If you're polite, send a merge request and specify which bug you're fixing. We would be still stuck with awesomium if it weren't a bunch of people spending their time fixing and creating NW for zero money so we can complain here how it doesn't work.

    Please keep in mind, C2 is still young, no matter how mature it looks. Scirra is doing a superb job.

    Could it be better? Sure, it could. If you don't like it, go use Unity. You'll see the grass is not so greener on the other side, and the problems are similar.

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  • The man who makes a solid C2 wrapper and puts it on the Scirra store will be a rich man indeed.

    For the purposes of chucking my hat in the ring - I'd happily contribute a few hundred to the hypothetical "make a wrapper" fund.

  • JohnnySheffield

    Your answer sounds like one of those fanboys I post earlier about, who can't see real issues with C2 - and I'm not talking about current exporters problem.

    So yeah, I'm sorry but I won't even bother to answer to your points.

  • JohnnySheffield

    Your answer sounds like one of those fanboys I post earlier about, who can't see real issues with C2 - and I'm not talking about current exporters problem.

    So yeah, I'm sorry but I won't even bother to answer to your points.

    shinkan

    That's cool.

    Thankfully C2 isn't the only tool i'm using for creating, so i don't get bothered when a tool designed to create javascript games doesn't work properly as a native application.

    Each task requires it's own tool. That's why there are plenty of languages, engines and devices to choose from.

  • [quote:2cm3n1tt]That's same as arguing that when you buy a car, the producer of the car is responsible to support every issue you have with that car.

    Lol, do you own a car? Ever bought one? Of course they have to. And that thing is called "warranty". Of course as long as the issue is not made of the user own actions/fault. Butif we suddenly jumped into "law and legalities" - C2 is being advertised as having various multi-platform wrappers, which as of now - is a FALSE advertisment. And if someone would feel like it - he has all the right to bring Scirra to court. And he would win. Of course i don't want this to happend, but yeah - its a totaly legit and possible reality.

    And no, Scirra is not young. If it appears young to you - then i don't know what is old in your dictionery. Microsoft? Apple?

    They (Scirra) are old and qualified enough.

    I hate when you guys play this "overprotective card" whenever someone says anything not-good about Scirra. You treat them like some kind of retards who need to be comforted and defended all time. Thats the "constructive criticism" (which Shinkan has been talking about) which is no where to be found. Only "yay"s, "bravo's" and a lot of clapping hands. With sweets and sugar you can only go so far.

    "There, there little Scirra, its alright, dont listen to those jerks. You are great and awesome and they can go kiss their own ass. Everything is gonna be alright i promise, hush hush~".

    It's disgusting.

    5 years ago i've made a choice. I decided to go with CC. Which then evolved into C2. Now i am 30 years old, with wife and 3 years old son. My and my family future depends on Construct. Do i like it or not. Those 5 years has been already spent and i am really in no position to turn away now. Its too late. But i also believe its way too soon to judge my choice, and you telling me i was stupid to pick C2 is plain insulting.

    I am NOT here to troll or argue, especially with someone who (for some reason) cannot see the big picture. But bottomline - i await and EXPECT a solution to be found. And i have ALL the rights to do so. Because the "car i bought" is suddenly missing wheels. And i am not in a mood to push it down the street from now on. That was not part of the deal. When money lands on table - things gets serious. This is how the world works. Do you like it or not.

  • Well whatever the NW bug on MAC is, did not occur in C2 v172 (what I used for my game on sale now).. so it seems to be 174+ (and whatever NW version it included) that has this bug.

    I just wish there was more due care taken when you update 3rd party software to newer versions, just test them first to ensure its not utterly broken before including them in C2 updates.

    irbis I fully agree with you. As for the use the right tools for the right job jibe from what the heck are you implying? That C2 can't be used for a professional making a living making native games? I could have sworn that was what Scirra advertise C2 as, cross-platform, one code base, native programs or mobile apps.

    michael I also fully agree with all your well thought points. But the truth is that Scirra will not be implementing native exporters for C2, it's a HTML5 engine that relies on browsers. Fine, we all know that. Just devote some more time to ensure our native export options are functional, with vital features.

    We don't need more fancy features so much as we need the native exports to just WORK and with the ability to monetize our games. I hope they are working on including functional AdMob & Google Store into C2 with an official XDK plugin.. because if they are not, and expect us mobile devs to jump through 4th party plugins, ensuring it works on 3rd party wrappers.. i'm gonna abandon ship and my next games will be on Game Maker.

    ps. Linux native export is still broken after how long??

  • One last thing to throw out of my system and i am out of here.

    "Hardcore" developers... Even the sound of this makes my blood boil.

    So now, apparently, i am HARDCORE because i want to develope my games on as many platforms as i can...?

    THIS is the definition of HARDCORE now? Bloody hell how the world changed.

    Wanna know a story? Ever heard of Torque engine? It was like RPG Maker on steroids for years. Till one day... two guys from their basements made a game called SPAZ. And the game gone viral. And Torque sells suddenly skyrocket.

    Wanna know why? Because right before the title screen rolls in theres a Torque 2D logo. And the engine is best rated by how many succesful games has been made with him. Wanna earn pennies or bucks? Because Torque made bucks. When i develope a successful game, and i am fond of the engine of my choice - i advertise it. I am paying my respect to the people that enabled me to fullfill my dreams. But if i am publishing a game, with an engine that brought me nothing but struggles and stress ("omg what will break this time...?") you really need to have guts to expect me to advertise you. If anything - i will do the exact opposite. To warn people.

    Maybe this is the right time for you to finally leave your comfort zone and join the big boys.

    If you have what it takes, that is.

    And another problem is not as someone said "people being spoiled and demanding".

    Its exactly the other way around. Its people being FEED UP with MEDIOCRITY and cheap "Made In China"-style products and services. At least - I AM.

  • Au contraire!

    I've been living from C2 and teaching C2 for more than a year now. With my company i'm responsible for more than 300 new users of C2 in Croatia. I've been developing C2 games for clients also, and am currently opening my second company which will be focused on creating software with c2 and other tools and game engines. Also, i'm one of the first C2 users to export C2 games to NW, and first to create a plugin for Node-Webkit. Even the documentation and plugins i created served as a basis for implementing official support for nw export in C2.

    I was implying that if you have a client that requires some features, your job is to find a solution for this problem (and you don't need to look far, the solution for the problem that caused this whole thread is posted in the original bug thread and requires c/p a few files). And if you see that C2 isn't suited for the job, you either find a solution, or deny an offer. And believe me, there are situations when C2 isn't just the tool for the job (3d apps are the most obvious).

    I've vested a lot of time in C2, and i believe it's a superb software. But don't be afraid to step outside of C2, and, let's say learn more about node and nw and, even perhaps, pack your nw apps manually. It's a rewarding and surprisingly easy, and you'll get more fine-grained control.

    edit:

    I just wish there was more due care taken when you update 3rd party software to newer versions, just test them first to ensure its not utterly broken before including them in C2 updates.

    ...

    We don't need more fancy features so much as we need the native exports to just WORK and with the ability to monetize our games.

    • Yes! I fully agree!!
  • michael JohnnySheffield irbis shinkan

    To be blunt, I don't think most people who buy C2 ever release anything...often not even half-assed test games or re-skinned templates. For some C2 is a game engine. For many it is merely a game. And most of those people won't care about exporters because, in the event that they do finish anything, they'll just upload it to a portal for their friends to play.

    Essentially, I agree that the export situation is dicey. However, I'm trying to be realistic -- and a bit of a devil's advocate -- as well.

    Ashley can't possibly build and maintain exporters from scratch.

    The only realistic alternative is to maintain customized forks of the extant exporters, and take a more direct approach to correcting bugs; either by fixing them himself or paying someone else to do it.

    If extra capital is needed, there is crowdfunding, a new license variant, subscription models, etc. Ultimately though, I don't think Ashley wants to do this. All we can do is try to convince him to reconsider, and work together as a community to solve what we can, as best we can. Or leave. There's that too. I'm not anywhere near that state of mind yet, but I understand those who are and sympathize with their frustrations.

    The reason I choose C2 was not because it could export to a bunch of platforms. Not because it was 'code free' (which, really, it isn't). The reason I threw in with this platform was because, IMHO, it has the best community out there: active, helpful, knowledgeable, polite, and extremely noob tolerant .

    My biggest concern? Those people going away, because they are as much the lifeblood of C2 as the engine itself.

    I've seen far too many giants of the community expressing a certain hopelessness that C2 is destined to be a learning and prototyping tool as opposed to a serious development platform. Their concerns may not represent the majority, but their absence would be devastating.

    Ashley, you've built something incredible, but the problem with doing something incredible is that people's expectations rise accordingly. Addressing these issues may be a lot of work -- and involve a bit of backtracking -- but it won't be as difficult as manning the 'How Do I?' forum by your lonesome.

  • Can confirm this bug is 174+ related. I just exported my game which was working fine on 172 & 173 and now touch/mouse clicks don't register properly, AND there's a beeping audio bug which I've never had before. On Macbook Air 2013.

    I also tried to copy over the older version node-webkit folder in html5 export in C2, overriding the current version and now the game doesn't load at all, crash on start. The older version is from either 171 or 172 (which work fine on export before).

    Trying again with 173...

    Seriously such a crippling bug like this, how the hell did it made it pass QA from the NW team and Scirra?

    Edit: Copying the note-webkit from v173 to override C2 v175 doesn't work either. Crash on startup. Game over.

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