Construct Users, Let's Stick Together and Make Something Gr8

  • karan316

    First i just want to apologize for my english if i "smashed" some words in this text, and sorry if its to long.

    As people are raising their voice against scirra C3 i personally agree with what you said above, you have many good points especially the yearly subscription where a business always needs money to be able to sustain itself otherwise it would just die off in a matter of years and with pain being endure by those involved in the development.

    Didn't had time to go over all the responses people placed here, however il just say a few quick concerns i have vs scirra history when it comes to decision making and past responses that people wanted and scirra just ignored which here you can say was played a shady business trick which made C2 users feel being cheated.

    Now lets talk about, why C2 users feel being cheated:

    1) Is a result of C2 users had/has a little forum area saying something along the lines of "improvements for C2 and requests for official development" that little forum section dates years before C3 was even on sketch-bench.

    2) Scirra said none major updates will come to C2 along the years while those ideas where suggested down there in the forum section.

    3) Scirra took some of those C2 users ideas(that where making sense) and put them into C3 asking for a yearly subscription without leaving access to the same wanted features into C2.

    4) The moment C3 was announced we all felt that C2 will not get any actually updates and finally at some point will be drop'd (which happened the past 2 weeks in a official blog post saying it is on pause if not even definitive.)

    5) C3 looks and feels flimsy, its like saying is unsecured one thing that give that feeling is that now, anyone that uses your computer if they install the wrong addon on the browser, your account to access C3 is vulnerable, and probably losing access not only to C3 account but also to all your emails and other sensitive information "even your naughty pics". That means your C3 account is as secure as your browser is, and now youl be thinking " well doooh who installs addons?", you'll be amazed many people customizes their browsers by adding plugins into them especially chrome.

    6) Scirra past response towards some user suggestions where pretty much indifferent when asked for a built in mobile wrapper always was rejected by the means that is just to hard to time consuming to keep updating it, however other software companies are doing it for years now im not going to name them, there are big companies and there are smaller companies then even scirra and they still have their own mobile wrapper in their system, not going to say that the companies software's are better functioning then C2 but that feature itself kicks bottoms and is just making sense to have one instead of 3rd parties that always tend to don't care what C2 users want since we are not their user base, one case here first time was this N name company scirra affiliated with for mobile wrapping, all fine and dandy all C2 users got premium accounts for life on their system since they needed a user base and wanted to grow, as time passed scirra drop'd the official support for their plugin and the users where forced to move to Microsoft wrapper since the old wrapper company was asking 500$ to remove a splash screen which premium users shouldn't have, and that was not the only problem with that N company.

    7) Mobile/pc built in revenue systems for fast implementation in games, there are a few plugins in the forum however none scirra official supported unless something got released in the past months. Even if that is the case its still a issue we where asking for that feature for years in C2, and now all that is solved in C3 cause everyone should move to C3 why not right?

    8) As we seen similar companies that grown as scirra did, we seen their mistakes and we are just scared that scirra will just follow same mistake patterns, and they already doing some of the mistakes now, for example, launching a product with closed doors taking what users want and makes sense to have in the software and force them to upgrade to a new license(i call that the oil business slick maneuver many companies did it and doing it, and none of those companies are worth the trust users put in them after people "bite the donut").

    And the list goes on.

    Now dont get me wrong by the time you read this you'll probably plotted your comeback thinking im against scirra and that i hate them or some malefic plan i have to overthrown them and make them look bad so the competition gains more downloads or user base or that the competition pays me to write stuff like this, none of that is the case, as you will notice on my profile i had/have different projects of my own all to support and promote C2 and scirra without getting nothing in return, i just think is a great tool that gives creative people the means of expressing themselves.

    The moment i seen C2 it was instant love, hours turned into days, days into months, months in years till it got so familiar that feels like breathing air by now. And i still love C2 and even the baby brother C3.

    I like most of the features that C3 holds because they are natural things to have in C3 which is like C2's newborn brother that is just better and will kick the bottoms of anything that you will trow at him when he grows up.

    As i said before i agree with you that scirra does need the yearly payment 1000% on that one, i never been against that, outside the fact i hate subscription models, and here is why the moment you subscribe to something it automatically charges your card, that beings said, your secure and yours only credit card or debit card is not only yours anymore, your sharing it with a company that might have some security issues along the side of development and you might wake up one day that your balance is 0 or -1500 EURO or what your currency is... that is why i hate subscription, and the fact that always when the subscriptions ask for money it always happens maybe im the only one that this happens to but to me always and i mean always even if its a 10 dollar subscription or 1000$ i always dont have any money on the card itself in that specific day, and my subscription is always canceled and i have to redo all the process again, not to mention that the whole solar system and stars align in the same day and i need that software the most in the entire history i ever use it.

    That being said, i just hope scirra( Ashley & Tom) would take in consideration some of the concerns raised not only by me i DONT NEED to feel special in anyway, but users in general take some notes of what users want 'cause in the end, thats your source of income and if you ignoring them, they will just leave and move to a software that just does same thing even if worst, and all only for the fact of feeling betrayal or corporate greed.

    Happened in the past to bigger companies that while having success on software/game sales service offerings for a while, in 2 years they died out just because of the betrayal and stingy feeling.

    Those are my reasons though, some of C2 users probably feel same hope you understand we are still supporting scirra we just want some C2 changes as well changes that would make more people to buy C2, while C2 is mature as software is not a complete mature software is a medium software that still lacks stuff... had matured in age, but not in functionalities,actually C2 was doing same thing it does now for years, and realistically nothing has changed but only adapted to 3rd parties.

    In the end releasing C3 makes sense as business it was expected and we wanted to see it released for long time since was announced, and also we want scirra evolve and grow to its full potential since has something no other companies have which is demand and a strong community, there is always place for improvement but just don't do what others are doing, and that reminds me of this Einstein quote "Doing same thing over and over again and expecting different results, is Insanity".

    Edite: as i typed the reply i also opened a new tab and read Ashley 's reply he did mention this

    "I think as users it's worth remembering: everything is a trade-off. For example, to use an old example, we could make native engines, but it's such a huge amount of work it would mean cutting several other platforms entirely, and not getting round to a whole set of other features. "

    As a business that just make no sense, your scared of loosing what? 3rd parties? so you better be using 3rd parties that might die in 1 year and not have your own system? how that even makes sense? all those resources your spending on keeping that 3rd parties happy and working inside c3/c2 is just wasted money, quick analogy, im renting an apartment but i can also buy it from bank at same price by paying same amount as the rent each month, however i decide not to ....cause ... feeling of ownership(which raises lots of more doors) and stability is not good?

    As everything is a trade off, as a business owner my self i would remove the need of trading anything when comes to software features and do my own native built in system yes is cost is going to be high, but not for long just the burn rate of development, but is doable and after 6 months lets say i doubt it will take longer then a few months to make the changes, instead of having all those shinny cheap 3rd parties youl have few months burn rate going skyrocket to develop your own things and then making more money and just spending money on maintenance... not sure if this was ever raised as a issue, but in my own business which is both hardware and software i will always remove the need of 3rd parties even if for a while people will be disappointed not having some things, good part about C2/C3 there are older versions that have some features and work without them so reverting a few feature in the latest build till everything is built in properly i think is worth it. But then again everyone decides their fate, if the love of not owning things is so strong that its blinding the direction of company then we can point it to you as days are in our lives nothing wont change, if its money that is required, i think a crowdfunding(now crowdfunding i mean pre-sales of the software take the money for the changes in advanced as long as they making sense but make them C2/C3 native stuff otherwise would defeat the purpose) can help out even an ICO, many companies pulled it off especially when you give users a functional software that kicks ass and C2/C3 are kicking it good, just depending to much on other peoples 3rd party business doesn't make sense is C2 all over again. Im sorry if im over stepping my boundaries here or it might sound like it, i think is first time i talk so directly with you, but i suggest some sessions with the team, you never know where the next improvement may come.

    I hope my post would be taken as a constructive criticism and not as pure dissing it wasn't meant as dissing.

    Please don't ban me, that would be very disappointing since i just written my opinion with all the love towards the product and company, and only tried to speak out most of my personal worries and probably some of the community as well.

  • I've since calmed down from the initial sticker shock of C3, but still maintain it signals the end of Construct. Here's the issue:

    Hobbyists - will pay for one year (maybe two) on a subscription basis. The novelty of making "apps for fun" wears off quickly for most.

    Dev - At $149 per year for the right to monetize apps, it's a tough sell. The app market is about dead for 90% of indie developers and Google Play constantly sends out bots for issues such as outdated Cordova plug-ins etc. They also constantly change their terms for monetization and as a dev, I don't want to be beholden to keeping a C3 license just to possible "fix" apps that are flagged on GP in the future. $12 a month just to use C3 is too much. Most "new devs" (Constuct level) will never see $12 a month. My latest app created with Android Studio made 2c today - that's right 2c. It's not as easy as many think.

    The beauty of C2 was that you already owned the license, so any issues could be worked out "eventually'. It's a shame becasue despite my criticism of C3, I had a lot of fun with C2.

    I don't remember the same defensiveness of C2 as there is for C3, in itself, that's an indicator to me that the subscription platform may be being realized as a mistake.

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  • I've since calmed down from the initial sticker shock of C3, but still maintain it signals the end of Construct. Here's the issue:

    Hobbyists - will pay for one year (maybe two) on a subscription basis. The novelty of making "apps for fun" wears off quickly for most.

    Dev - At $149 per year for the right to monetize apps, it's a tough sell. The app market is about dead for 90% of indie developers and Google Play constantly sends out bots for issues such as outdated Cordova plug-ins etc. They also constantly change their terms for monetization and as a dev, I don't want to be beholden to keeping a C3 license just to possible "fix" apps that are flagged on GP in the future. $12 a month just to use C3 is too much. Most "new devs" (Constuct level) will never see $12 a month. My latest app created with Android Studio made 2c today - that's right 2c. It's not as easy as many think.

    The beauty of C2 was that you already owned the license, so any issues could be worked out "eventually'. It's a shame becasue despite my criticism of C3, I had a lot of fun with C2.

    I don't remember the same defensiveness of C2 as there is for C3, in itself, that's an indicator to me that the subscription platform may be being realized as a mistake.

    My greatest advise (positive criticism) would be this:

    Do what the users are trying to do in order to show that it can be done.

    User want:

    To make apps and steam games

    To have in app purchases that work every time on every platform

    To have ads that are easy to integrate and work great and have high eCPM

    And to create great multiplayer games and experiences that can drive users to play with their friends

    If Construct team can provide a clear example of those being done, it will be much easier for users to do it. (And many bugs will be worked out in the process as well.) Thanks Scirra Team.

  • I've since calmed down from the initial sticker shock of C3, but still maintain it signals the end of Construct. Here's the issue:

    Hobbyists - will pay for one year (maybe two) on a subscription basis. The novelty of making "apps for fun" wears off quickly for most.

    Dev - At $149 per year for the right to monetize apps, it's a tough sell. The app market is about dead for 90% of indie developers and Google Play constantly sends out bots for issues such as outdated Cordova plug-ins etc. They also constantly change their terms for monetization and as a dev, I don't want to be beholden to keeping a C3 license just to possible "fix" apps that are flagged on GP in the future. $12 a month just to use C3 is too much. Most "new devs" (Constuct level) will never see $12 a month. My latest app created with Android Studio made 2c today - that's right 2c. It's not as easy as many think.

    The beauty of C2 was that you already owned the license, so any issues could be worked out "eventually'. It's a shame becasue despite my criticism of C3, I had a lot of fun with C2.

    I don't remember the same defensiveness of C2 as there is for C3, in itself, that's an indicator to me that the subscription platform may be being realized as a mistake.

    I don't mean to sound like an expert, but I think if making money is the question, then indie developers like us should just look at PC and Console. Just do one thing, contact any seasoned indie developer and ask him what platform you should target and why.

    I have been doing my research for the past 2 and a half years on various gaming related stuff. I felt too raw when I had tried to make games with C2 the last time. All the tools were there, but I didn't feel I was ready enough to make something worth playing, so I have invested a hell lot of time in understanding the industry(Still don't think I have enough knowledge though , the gaming world is too large and complex). From what I have learnt, I personally wouldn't even target the oversaturated mobile market even if I create something super simple. I agree a 100% that compatibility with Steam is a must, but you are reducing your chances of getting success with the mobile platform. Even if you use another engine, I would just request you to focus on the PC and console market.

  • The Scirra team have been great as well as the community. I've been getting used to Construct 3 and I love being able to fiddle around with code on my phone. I was worried initially about a subscription model, but I get it, and will continue to support this model.

    This platform has enabled me to be creative, get involved in the scirra community, make extra income on the side, and I wouldn't have been achieve this goal of mine without it. Thanks!

  • Hey JLH1964 , It's not $149, it's $99 if you don't have a business. If you have a registered business you should be able to pay $149 per year. (BTW 99$ is cheaper than Netflix or Spotify.)

    You've already opened threads/written posts and we get it you don't like the subscription. Construct Team says it's a better model for them and many of us agree with them. You say they will fail but even developers don't subscribe it there is a huge education market for them.

    You're repeating the same things and wasting your energy. You can make games or templates or get freelance jobs to pay your C3 subscription.

  • Let's dispell this fiction that C3's pricing is somehow unaffordable for commercial developers - C3 costs the same as Apple's developer license for God's sake.

    The biggest selling point for me is the build server - to get a comporable ease of use service (i.e Cocoon) you'd have to pay $86 at least - for $13 more you get the build service and the entire game engine with C3! And that's not even the best bit...

    No splash screens.

    If you want to make an iOS game without a splash screen with Cocoon, get ready to pay $500 (per game) on top of the monthly service fee. With C3, no splash screen.

    Saving $500 up front justifies literally 5 years of C3 subscription for me. Can you guys remember how far C2 got in 5 years? That was Ashley working alone - the subscription model allows for Scirra to scale their developer resources atleast threefold; I cannot wait to see what happens next.

  • Honestly, if you're in a football club or anything at least over in the western world, you're likely to pay at least 99 bucks for an annual membership fee as well. So every hobby has some sort of cost. If making games is a hobby to you, then of course it's up to you, but 99 bucks A YEAR really isn't that bad i find even for hobbiests and definitely not for developers working on a commercial product like myself.

  • Hey JLH1964 , It's not $149, it's $99 if you don't have a business. If you have a registered business you should be able to pay $149 per year. (BTW 99$ is cheaper than Netflix or Spotify.)

    I read the $99 was for non-monetized and the $149 was if you want to monetize (ads etc).

    You guys are so passionate, Im almost tempted to chance the $50 (discount for C2 users) to try it

    EDIT: I took the $49 deal - I know, I know, I dont make sense....but all you guys are so passionate - maybe Im missing something. Looks kind of cool, I guess....

  • Fortunately, the approach and the model have never changed at this level. You can still make commercial use and therefore money with all licenses purchased. The only limitations are related to turnover, income, generated.

  • The second I opened C3 in a browser I was amazed. C3 is so revolutionary. It's worth the subscription.

    On that note, subscriptions as a business model are tough to sell. People have to be fanatical about the product in order to pay a monthly subscription. Subscriptions are easier to sell in a B2B setting. B2C settings are tougher.

    Personally, I like subscriptions better because I get updates all of the time. Scirra has to do work so they should get continually paid for it.

  • EDIT: I took the $49 deal - I know, I know, I dont make sense....but all you guys are so passionate - maybe Im missing something. Looks kind of cool, I guess....

    Congratulations and welcome

  • >

    > EDIT: I took the $49 deal - I know, I know, I dont make sense....but all you guys are so passionate - maybe Im missing something. Looks kind of cool, I guess....

    >

    Congratulations and welcome

    Thanks! I'm playing around with exporting -

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