Ashley
[quote:3s5actmm]I just don't think it matters, which is why we don't specifically highlight it on our site, and I'm OK with that. We also don't mention the HTML5 export has a ~245kb overhead, which is a 1200% overhead if your game is 20kb, because it doesn't materially affect anything.
You have got to be kidding. What kind of scewed perspective is that? Comparing 245 kb to 60mb overhead? Are you reading what you are writing?
[quote:3s5actmm]Sure, someone could claim they want to run their game over a 56k modem and that overhead is too much...
What? 56 modem? What are you talking about? Do you even know at this point?
[quote:3s5actmm] ...but for such a significant majority of users, it is of no practical importance, so it does not warrant a mention.
Significant majority of users? Are a significat majority of users sucessful? No only a few. Its these that have original and different ideas.
[quote:3s5actmm]Since virtually nobody else has ever complained about the NW.js file size overhead, I also believe it to be of no practical importance to the vast majority of users
Exporting to the web is a viable alternative with little overhead if your game is not for sale. If your game is for sale, e.g. on Steam, then customers in that market are accustomed to multi-gigabyte downloads so a 65mb download does not seem like a significant hurdle to commercial success.
If the game is not directly for sale (e.g. a free hobby-made indie game), then web publishing seems to be a perfectly viable low-overhead alternative.
And how to you base this? Was flappy bird (who care if it was for mobile) not a commercial success? Did one expect that it gets so much commercial success?
I just took your last post as a "go f*** yourself" reply to me. Once again you purposefully did not answer my questions altough I politely asked you. This is your forum and you do not want to answer one of your customers that put a lot of effort in trying to see what the situation is with Scirras company policy. Everyone can make their own mind and opinion on what you are writing and how you are treating me.
Fine if you dont want to anwser my questions to you I will answer based on your last post, them as I think I get the picture now. But first Ill adress you last post in more detail:
[quote:3s5actmm]We also don't mention the HTML5 export has a ~245kb overhead, which is a 1200% overhead if your game is 20kb
How is that putting things in perspective? Can you please show me games that weigh 20 kb that have nice graphics, sounds and are worthy of buying? Everyone can see your arguments not holding water. Firsly you talk about companies - coorporations that produce massive games that weigh 65GB like GTA and comapre this to indie. Now you take a different direction and talk about a game that weights 20kb... At what market are you aiming? Because I get the impression from what you write that Construct 2 is for people that make games 0<20 kb and 65>0 gb.
Really now, you are talking about a game that weighs 20kb? Do you know anything about developing indie games if this is your argument? How come you are developing a tool for creating games and have such weak arguments, speaking about games that weigh 20kb? This is a viable question. Games that have 5mb>20mb can be of quality. When a game has 20mb the NW.js extra weight is about 300% that of the game. Which still is quite amusing to me. I can show you a lot of games that are 20mb and are of quality. Again as I told you in the previous posts and you decided to ignore this, as you could have adressed what I have written if you took the time to reply to one of your customers and not treat them as garbage.
If you decided to not talk about this issue and seem that its OK that customer have a problem that you have not mentioned this fact, what else of importance have you decided not to mention (with reason) because you think its not relevant to indie devs that want to produce games using your software? I can only imagine... but Id rather not... And what is more I can only imagine you not giving a crap about that either.
I am starting to get a picture to whom Construct 2 is marketed. To beginner indie game developers that are probably still very young, do not know anything about game making (which is fine but now comes the important part).
In my opinion you are not telling anyone, nor giving a trial of the NW.js export, just in case, so that you dont lose customers who, once they find out that an export to NW.js adds a whopping (!)60mb(!) to the export, will simply decide to not use your engine, and whats more - not buy it. You are simply trying to aim yet at another market.
In my opinion the fact that this has not been mentioned anywhere, the increase of mb's is simply a marketing ploy. I have a right to my opinion and I am basing this opinion on the effort and time you have put in to replying to my posts, and your weak arguments - that its because you dont think its important. Is it you making an indie game? Or your customers? I dont care if you dont think its not important, its not you making my game.
You have not adressed almost anything I have written to you. Just talking about irrelevant game sizes - more than 65 gb or less than 20 kb. Did I say that 245kb overhead is too much to add to a game? No you have said it. How can anyone take you seriously now? How can I take you seriously? And you are developing a tool in which people develop games? Can you not see the difference between 60mb and 245 kb? Do I need to calculate this as a percentage for you and for everyone to see? Why are you yet again downplaying this and talking about people using a modem to download games? This is clear manipulation in any book.
Once again you did not answer my question but are still talking about exporting to web. Did you not read any of my posts? Because that sure sound like it. You on your own forum are breaking the rules of using a forum by not reading posts and replying to them? Did I not write that I do not want to export to web? I think I will have to go back and bring up the quotes of parts of posts that I have quoted.
Like I said once again I am bringing up the questions you so miserably failed to adress (these can be found on page 4, bottom post - for anyone that is interested):
1) How is it that this information is nowhere to be learned - the fact that NW.js is 60-90 mb larger once exported. Your answer: Because I think its OK to do that. How is that an argument coming from a software dev? Because I think its OK? In other words you are telling me to go F*** myself. This can be a dealbraker for some people yet you still think that is OK.
Again saying that I could use html5 as a substitute does not cut it as these do not work under the same conditions - NW.js being straight out of desktop, and html5 needing to be exported to the web. Can you imagine that for some this is a deal breaker? Also some people - like me for example do not want to publish to web. I only hope you dont start talking about how its better to publish to web, because as you know this thread is not about the reasons for publishing to web or not. - Your answer to this is talking about how it is viable alternative alternative to publish to web if your game is not for sale. Where did I write that I do not want to sell my game? I did not did I? Why are you not talking on subject, especially that there is so much material from me, so many questions that you could have chosen to answer, but did not do so on purpose.
2) Why is there no way to test out NW.js export even under very strict limitations and still not inform people about the additional mb's? No answer. None what so ever. Ignored.
I think I know why. I think you do to. Because some people wouldnt buy your software. There is no other explanation. If you were so confident this would not be a problem.
3) Why is there no information about this size increase and that altough this increase in size is there, it will in no way possible affect performance (only download times). That this has to be learned by spending 1 day on the forum - and by asking around. - Because I think its OK, I dont think its important to most users.
4) How can you compare hmtl5 export to NW.js export (especially to a customer that does not want to use html5) when both differ in the process of export and I imagine in the process of distribution. No answer. None.
5) Is it possible to distribute a html5 exported game from C2 on DVD? ( why do I have the feeling that you will write about NW.js being 60-90 mb bigger will be of no problem on Dvd - but again that was not the question - remember it is you who suggested html5 export if I dont like the +60~90 mb). No anwser. None.
And another post from me that you have not adressed:
[quote:3s5actmm]
I am a customer of Scirra and to this issue matters to me. As I am your customer and I am paying you for everything I expect from what information is provided and the free version I am testing out. Now if this matters to me - your customer - does it still now not matter to you?
Remember it is not you making my game, it is still me making my game using your software. Now its my turn to make use of it.
If you still say that this does not matter to you how does this make you look in terms of your priorities as a business?
You think it doesnt matter to inform potential customers about the downsides of using your software? Not giving them a chance to get to know this in the free version, or to read this anywhere on the site? Is this good marketing ethics you think? Do you still think that this is of no importance?
Why are you talking about industry standards and comparing GTA? What do I care if people are downloading gazzilions of gb through the internet?
What If I was to do something else and that was the reason I have purchased your software? What If I wanted only to create a game to distribute only on an old school floppy disk, and that because of the lack of information regarding your product I have been working on a game and have lost all kinds of resources? Time, potential client and potential freelance gig?
Does that still not matter to you?
I am talking about something you did not mention anywhere to customers and now are trying to downplay as of no importance.
To sum this up. This was about file size at first, but it ended up being mostly about principles and good business ethics.
Now I would like you to refer to this post and show me what you stand for.
While I know that it is important to have a thick shell when going solo or running a small business, however this is crossing the line. There time when one has to stand his grounds, and his strong arguments help that, and there are times when it is better for one to see what is really going on and show some honour.
A simple "yeah, maybe you might be right in your case, I am sorry that you feel this way and that you lost a gig because of the fact that we have not mention this part that seems important to you" would do, and would end this thread a long, long time ago. Do you know what principles are?
I think it is long time forgotten by you how it is to be an indie. I think you are way over that phase - at least mentally, on a good track to become a corpoation that just doesnt give a s***.
Customers are divided into 2 different categories: the ones that will defend the software no matter what - as their livelyhood is dependant on it and they are either too lazy to learn different software, or simply dont have the time as they have families etc. etc. These people are reaaaally veeery elastic you can even s**t on them as a dev and they will tell you that it is raining - they are very software dependant. Then theres is another group: The people try to be objective, take it for what it really is to them. These are the most ambituous people. These people draw lines which are not to be crossed and they stick to those no matter what.
When someone spits in my face I will not call it rain.
It might be that I am too ambitious for C2. Or its that I am simply too ambitous for you? Maybe you want this software to stay only as a transition phase, so that people use it only as a stop before they go further. Maybe that is the reason that not so many sucessful games for desktop have been created with C2? Maybe that is the reason as I look through peoples profiles here, that a majority has a good start, seem inteligent and eager to learn and create, ask good questions on the forums, and then within a month maybe two months their participation in the forum diminishes and then completly stops?
Look at my posts to see that I have really diged Construct 2. Look at some of the suggestions and the features that I posted for you to implement as they would have made this program so much better especially for people that come from animation and illustration as a background.
I dont expect a response from you as you would only cherry pick the parts you want to reply to, which is a clear manipulation. Talking to you is like talking to the wind. Or talking into a well - mostly I only hear my own echo. You dont compare apples to apples, you compare planets to apple, and then you compare specks of dust to apples. You use all kinds of different manipulation tactics to throw me off (and to throw off other readers) what the real issue in this thread is. Talking bout modems (???), other custromers (???), comparing indie games to big coorporation games (???) then to size that dont have any meaning what so ever (???) ignoring my posts and questions as questions from your customer (???), not treating this matter as serious (???), trying to downplay and brush this off (???).
I think you know that if this was a case in court that you would lose miserably. Let me just end this by putting this into a better perspective, my perspective for everyone to see:
A person that has bought your software and closed the deal with a financial transaction, has bought your software as he thought your software matched the criteria he had to face in a contract he was been given. The reason he thought so is because upon purchasing your software, nowhere had it been stated (nor was he able to find out anywhere, or test it out for that matter) that your sotware will prevent him from accomplishing his task. That very task was to create a game that weighed less than 15 mb in a Windows stand alone application, while exporting from your software gave the program and additional ~60mb overhead which rendered the task impossible to complete.
It is not your business why he wanted to do so as you only provide the tool, it is enough to say that your program prevented him from doing so. But it is your business not to mislead people by ignoring certain facts and sweeping them under the carpet, which can lead to future complications for your customers. And it is the business of others to make sure that you do not mislead people into thinking that they can achieve something that they evidently cannot.
As the business transaction was not transparent in this case, it renders the contract as not valid.
YOU: I dont think it matters. I think its OK.
Standing ovation.