Game engine/template sales

Maybe I misinterpreted the term template at first. In my first message I only was speaking about code and logic assembling that construct's projects are.

But on the other hand, I saw people asking for snippets of codes which is exactly what 90% of the capx in the "how do I" section is.

Just take the time to browse, even randomly browse that section, this is already a gold mine.

And no money is required. It's already up in the open.

Well when you think about it, its really not much different than working on a team, except you get paid upfront, and don't have to edit things constantly. So buyer beware on that, but speaking for myself, anything I did would have to be super complete, and at this stage of the game that's not really doable.

What is this madness?

Well i like the Example capx we get already i've learned from these, whic are basic templates for how things work, In torque you buy kits, i have a couple of them already, And most Game Dev tools come with addons to buy, look at Unity 3D and Games Creator stuff Their Model packs are brilliant, i really thing Scirra can make alot of money with addon packs, as alot are like me and CANNOT do art on pc's full stop no matter how much you try to teach us, It's a talent.

There are alot like me who buy buy buy as many utils, packages etc as possible to make games. Because lets face it the majority of users where Scirra will make their money from are casual hobbiests like me. Thats where GM,MMF2,GameCreators etc and others make their money

I've been making games since the Commodore 64 version of Shoot'em'up construction kit came out in the 80's, i then had click teams Klick'n'Play in the 90's, then MMF in the 00's and so on, but have i ever made a penny no and neither do most, but i've spent a hell of alot on game creating software and the addons.

Buying art and such does not sound like a bad idea. Game templates and code, it's little too much for my taste. I for one, can do everything - EXCEPT - character sprites. This has been my issue for ever, I just cannot sprite that kinda stuff, it's a talent that I will never learn. I could benefit from sprites, spriters or sprite editors (people). Of course, there's also the issue of pricing, I don't like to be ripped off.

I am in complete agreement with vidi. The only thing that matters is the end product. Lets face it, using Construct is already shameful in the eyes of the "do it yourself" people who say "you should be using C++ and DirectX/OpenGL, don't be lazy". People have expressed an interest in WebGL for Construct, well jeez don't be lazy - learn JavaScript and the WebGL API then make it yourself. Don't wait for Ashley and Tom to do it all for you.

Also as vidi said, many games already are exactly the same, Battlefield vs Call of Duty? Give me a break: they are the same game with infinitesimally small differences. There really hasn't been a new FPS since Wolfenstein 3D (1992) or a new strategy game since Command and Conquer (1995).

Trevor10: Not everybody has the time and resources to learn a programming language and put up with all the complications that arise from such practice. The first approach I think everybody has, is to learn some language, I did this at first, but life throws things at you that are more important than learning a language, so people think you are something else cos you prefer to type more than clicking.

In the end, all that matters is the logic behind the game. Logic is still logic, whether you use super-ultra-cool C++, MMF, GM, RM, CC, or C2.

Trevor10: Not everybody has the time and resources to learn a programming language and put up with all the complications that arise from such practice. The first approach I think everybody has, is to learn some language, I did this at first, but life throws things at you that are more important than learning a language, so people think you are something else cos you prefer to type more than clicking.

In the end, all that matters is the logic behind the game. Logic is still logic, whether you use super-ultra-cool C++, MMF, GM, RM, CC, or C2.

So why is there an issue with using a template? Myself, I think it's a brilliant idea.

As for the concerns about people making clones...well people will still make them, with or without a template. Take the Tower Defense games mentioned earlier in this thread. It doesn't matter if you make one in C++, Python, C2, or a template; it's still a clone.

Don't get me wrong though. C2 does in fact make the whole process MUCH easier. I've studied game programming as a hobby, so I can fully appreciate how much easier it makes the game creation process. With that said however, making a good game can still be a time consuming process, and having a base template to work from would save a LOT of time. It's no different than using a FPS game engine really.

For example, users could create templates for top-down shooters, and from that people could create zombie shooting games, space shooting games, or anything else that fits into top-down shooters. All it takes is some creativity.

I noticed that Scirra is crunched for resources, so this would be an excellent opportunity to let the community contribute custom content to C2 while Scirra works on the engine itself.

And let's face it...many of us, even those who are good with programming, could use the extra help. We want to make our ideas come to life as soon as possible, without worrying too much about mundane or technical aspects...which is why we chose to use C2 to begin with. The way I see it, templates would cut down on dev time even more.

Plus, artists could sell their artwork, animations, and music. I personally suck at graphics and animation, and I'd love it if I could hire someone from this board to make them for me.

That's another aspect; letting members offer their services.

And here's another angle you may not have considered yet;

A popular practice in the video game industry is to license successful titles to 3rd party developers. The reasoning for this is simple; the owner of the IP doesn't have the time or resources to develop all of the ideas it has for a game, plus letting someone else create a game for their franchise would help promote their brand, AND it would give them an immediate cash injection plus long-term revenue from royalties.

I was actually thinking of doing this for my own games. It would be especially helpful for newer indie developers, because they would have a pre-made game to work with and mod, which would help them learn more about the game creation process and gain experience, and cut down on development time. Plus they could take advantage of my game's name AND my platform, giving them much needed exposure. It could give them the leg-up they need to get their company of the ground.

Plus, it'd be kinda impossible for people to just "clone" a game they're licensing...they'd be forced to take a unique angle to the game and make something totally unique.

Of course, templates offer the same benefits as a licensed game, without the restrictions.

As for implementing this idea...I understand the devs don't have a lot of time, and I have a idea that may not take a lot of time.

For example, you could make the marketplace forum, then set it so all threads must be approved by a moderator. When a user submits a thread, they get a PM asking for payment to post the thread. Once they make the payment, the mod can approve their thread.

Or you could make it free to post in at first, and see how it goes from there.

There are a lot of directions this could take, and it only takes a little creativity to make it into something that is highly valuable for all members. And when you think of it, that's the whole philosophy driving C2: a little creativity goes a long way, and can be the cure to "cloneitus".

Just my stretched-to-breaking-point-$0.02. ;)

So why is there an issue with using a template? Myself, I think it's a brilliant idea.

Actually I was talking about CREATING a game, using a TOOL. This...:

I just came from the Mac Gamesalad forums where you can buy templates for a few dollars and then just change the graphics, add levels, music etc.

...is not game making, someone else made the game for you, you are just editing it. The logic isn't yers, it's someone else's, sort of like reverse engineering a ROM of a game with a tool for such purpose. I'm against it, on a personal level, of course. But as long as this does not affect the support of the forums, I do not care. By making this a reality, I suppose I envisioned restrictions being put into motion on the forums. Like, they could restrict us on posting certain examples and such, so people will buy them instead. Plain and simple, that would really stink.

So that is where all those match-3 clones come from...

A little sample of a guy who never programmed in his life.

After trying to make games with RPG Maker, Indie Game Maker and Game Maker, I saw the limitation of each one.

Looking for a tool where you can make logic without the the worry of programming, I found EGM, MMF, Stencyl and much other.

But, definitely the best one is C2.

Please, leave this feature for the future, a far future. I prefer to see more features like new exporting plugins and behavior from now.

Having a Marketplace will not affect Scirra and it's development at all.

In fact I'm sure that if Ashley sees a thriving community buying and selling engines and graphics, he will be pleased. This will attract more potential early adopters.

Look, if somebody buys a template and hardly works on it, it will never end up for sale. So clones are nothing to worry about.

For serious developers, having an engine as a base makes total sense. I have no ego when it comes to game release. It's all a business to me. If I didn't code the element where a tower chooses to fire on the closest/weakest/strongest enemy then what does it matter?

Producing a game that looks great and is entertaining is my responsibility.

To all coders, set up Paypal for payment, code an engine for a game type (you don't even have to make any graphics, just functionality).

Then charge $10 or whatever. I guarantee you will make more money selling to us in here than you would releasing a game.

If admin could just open a new "Marketplace" topic in the Construct 2 Forum we can get going.

For those wishing to code the whole game on their own they need never click on that topic.

If you want to see the potential of this just go over to the Gamesalad forums.

We have considered a market place, and generally like the idea. If we did open such a feature though (and there's a LOT to do before we start this!) we would make sure it only listed high quality resources.

There are some resources that are very difficult for indie devs to get hold of, for example high quality sounds and music. I think those would have legitimate benefit for a lot of game makers and can definitely see the value in that.

Sprites are always hard. To get enough sprites for people to buy and make lots of different types of games means you need a lot of sprites. Sprites are incredibly time consuming and expensive to make if you want to hit an excellent level of quality. So that would be quite difficult.

Funny Topic.

Through all the reply, I can see the programmer side :

"What? a template code? Noway we will see all kind of bad clones!

But yeah Sprite packs are neat I can't draw sh*t! I'm like a penguin with a pencil."

And... The more or less artistic side :

"Yeah I don't want to bother with c2 programming, just give me a platformer/tower defense/rpg template and let me put my design on it. I will make that code shine!"

Well... That's trully the same. You will either make gameplay clones or graphical clones (anyone ever played robot unicorn attack and compared the basic version and the metal one?...). And in all that nobody ever mentionned this obscur but crucial new Art form that is Game Design.

Thinking about player experience, what emotion you want to create, what kind of challenge I want to put the player into? what will be the rewards? How will I make the difficulty evolve? and what will be the background of my game? The atmosphere? How Gameplay and Background story can mix to create a new neat piece?

Game design is neither a programming nor a graphic/sound design subject. It's BOTH! And that's why serious project should be made in a team. (or if you are as skillfull as konjak or nifflas... Well... you can be a living exception :D ). But seriously, making game is a team effort and that's the beauty of it.

Now I hear some comming with a "yeah but a team... it's hard to work with people" "I want to make my own thang" "if I need someone to programm I will take a C++ guy and won't need c2 anymore?" etc etc etc.

Well, as a matter of fact, you would be right. But my point is that only the end product matters. And I strongly believe that using either template or sprite pack you will definitely end up with a sh*tty game.

HOWEVER, you are talking money. Want to make money doing games. Selling packs can bring money to scirra.

Yeah right.

There are many ways to make money.

There are many wrong ways to make money.

Let's imagine, Scirra sells template pack and sprite packs.

So if I could make a prediction, I would say, you will begin to see many tower defense with the battlefield pack, same with the space pack, and some with the battelfield AND the space pack. And then you will see the same exact tower defense with some neat graphism, and yeah the tower defense with just some square 'cause don't want to bother with art.

And quickly c2 will be associated to a type of gamePLAY and graphism. "Yeah with c2 you can make... You know, tower defense"

Well My point is The image of a tool is important.

When you think unreal development kit, you see in your head "good damn good graphism" and yeah "fps"... for long udk was associated with fps. Hard to do something else with it. But now they managed to show that you could do all type of game with it (even a tower defense)

UDK didn't suffer from that "with udk you can only make fps" 'cause they well... Epic's tool and games sell well.

I said, there are many ways to make money, and in my opinion template and sprite pack aren't really a good way because of the image games made with them could give to c2.

The other way I'm thinking about, since many month ago, is more or less that scirra actually could make a real game to show off C2.

Not now, but in a near future, when HTML5 will be ripe, C2 could collaborate with some users to make a serious HTML5 game and improve their tool in the process. The end result should show the true power of C2 as long as sell well.

In a nutshell, that's more or less how udk became that good. Improving an engine by using it.

I think that would be way more powerfull than some sh*tty pack. And well... How many 2D game makers already did that? :D

I agree with the idea of a market place for assets (sprites, animations, audio, etc.). I do, however, see a problem with a template market: support.

Say I want a tower defense template, so I pay $10 and get the template. Now I want to make some changes because, being a generic template, it's not exactly what I need. Since I didn't code it, and it can be assumed I don't know how to code it since I had to buy it, will the developer provide the kind of support I need to add features, change logic, etc?

I know many of the developers here offer free help now on the examples and plugins they've made, and I know a lot of them would feel compelled to offer support on something they've sold, but how much and for how long?

If you look at it from the reverse point of view, I'm a developer who made a template that I am selling for $10. But now, since money has been exchanged, I am expected to support that template. Bug fixes are one thing, but what about modifications? How will I be able to work on my own games or create new templates if I am continually being asked to make modifications to my original template?

This is just my opinion, but I can see how that might spiral quickly out of control.