Disappointed over bad communications!!!

Looks like ranting thread, so here are few thoughts of my own.

I, for one, think C2 is a great tool. Haven't encountered anything with similar productivity. It has it's limitations in performance, but don't think it is all C2 fault.

For example, recently I made extremely simple game https://play.google.com/store/apps/deta ... shapematch

primary reason to test exporting capabilities with admob ads, I disabled what ever I could, and had interesting testing results.

For starters I probably made mistake when didn't checked uses media on export, but there is audio on some devices, probably will upload new version soon, to test that and few more things.

So what are the results, with export as normal Android app (I just can't justify crosswalk size overhead for this game):

performance wise, ZTE Blade 3 is the worst, it can't event work as intended, when sprite is moving to a place, it never finds it, just circles around

also on all tested 4.x devices there is no audio, but there is audio on 2.3 and 5.0

on Alcatel Idol, it works, not great, but let's say it's usable

on Galaxy S4 it works with few frames dropping, on S5 situation is better, just to mention that in regular browser on those devices, game works better than installed version which I can't explain, should be the same browser.

on LG G3, with Lollipop it works as intended, and what is most interesting, on LG P500 (android 2.3.3) it works perfectly, well, it doesn't show ads, but it is admob plugin for Cordova responsibility, not C2.

Tried also on same noname 4.x tablet, antutu score ~26000, it also works fine

So, in my opinion, it is a question of stock browsers, and blacklisted GPU (crosswalk export), I didn't, on purpose, changed any of the settings via XDK, just to see what will happen, and will app pass on Google Play. Also since C2 is simple tool, I think that export should be simple also, to spend more time on exporting, than development is pointless, if that is the case, I can go back to Java/Eclipse <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_sad.gif" alt=":(" title="Sad">

Also if anyone could make one table with what is supported where in export I would really appreciate it, something like columns (Cordova, Crosswalk, Canvas+...) and rows (Android 4, 5, iOS 7, 8, Win, WP, ...), and then maybe even sub rows ( audio, webgl, admob...)

Anyway, back to C2 great features, recently I was asked to do some promo pong-like game for one company. I made a demo in 10 minutes as a proof pf concept, there is no way I could do that in anything else. Exported to apk, works fine for now.

All in all, I am satisfied with C2, don't expect much right now, and blaming Google rather than Scirra right now. If problems persist with newer versions of Android then Scirra should think about native export if they think that C2 should be tool for publishing game on a mobile platforms. And I still think it is doable with some cooperation outside Scirra, I think I mentioned that somewhere before, that guy from Basic4Android, he can work some black magic with conversion to Java. I am sure there is more people like him that can think of something, or maybe Crosswalk Lite is a way to go, I don't now, It is for Scirra to decide. But keep it simple and usable.

Nesteris [quote:2r8llqnz]I trust you to not do anything malicious.

psst Ashley, replace all of his audio with Rick Astely

DatapawWolf - LOL - I think he should also make a small but not-so-subtle change of the loading icon to this:

Ashley, so I started using Chrome's JavaScript profiler. It seems to crash more often than not when I hit "record" and a few seconds after the game starts... Is that bad? Or does that occur occasionally?

The problem with early game developers are when they say they are making a HD game they are LITERALLY MAKING A HD GAME !

Like FREAKING 1920 by 1080 !!!

Here is a Slap in the face heads up, even the latest games wasn't built with that resolution in mind, here is a few SHOCKERS, but be clear that the list GOES ON!

Call of Duty 3: 1088 by 634 (2 x AA)

Call of Duty 4: 1024 by 600 (2 x AA)

Conan (Demo): 1024 by 576 (no AA)

Conflict: Denied Ops = 1280 by 720p (No AA)

Def Jam Icon: 1152 by 648 (No AA)

Devil May Cry 4: 1280 by 720

GT5 Prologue: 1280 by 1080 (2 x AA)

No your platform game doesn't need to be 1920 by 1080, no your next flappy bird doesn't need 4K resolution, wake up.

Toddler - awesome points.

GPUs are not up to full HD with 6 parallax layers and 1000 on screen moving objects with webgl effects on top. Just because C2 will let you do that in 30 mins of drag/drop does not mean you should be doing it.... I've just been reading up on optimizing html5 drawing - even scaled images and high quality up-scale settings will add a draw burden that might cause stutters in low powered devices. There are lots of tricks available to coders that we cannot easily access, like drawing static objects to a separate canvas to reduce draw calls each tick (I know, there is a way that you can do this, but the plugins are not officially supported). Perhaps in a couple of years then GPUs will be able to cope with most amateur aspirations, but until then there seems to be a need for a repeating education piece to curb expectations. I think that if every image object had to be added to a javascript file long-hand then this would never manifest as a problem... Ashley - you've only got yourself to blame for making it too easy .

Toddler

Sorry, but my game is 256x192 base resolution upscaled to fit the desktop (as I can't force a desktop resolution, so it stays as-is eg: 1600x900 on my desktop or 1366x768 on laptops), and some of the examples you gave are older games that run very well on modern hardware which somehow still stutters with a simple C2 2D retro game like mine.

There is something going on that is not quite as easy as blaming it on the developer for "demanding too much from the hardware", especially when I get better performance than someone running my game on a better PC.

Colludium

Yeah, there's beginners throwing every shader on and getting the game barely pushing 1fps and complaining, but there's also people stripping every feature they can find to try and determine the source of the slow fps when their game is a small retro inspired title that in theory could run on a NeoGeo.

Considering how high-level C2 is, it actually does make sense for the engine to pre-bake any data we feed into it and do the heavy optimization only once at export, so that runtime can be incredibly fast. Therefore, aside of real-time things like shaders, I don't see why the engine doesn't automatically know to break a 2048x2048 or larger sprite down into smaller chunks internally and apply the mathematics necessary to change the game logic for this break-down of objects.

An easy game development tool can still run well, as I've experienced with Construct Classic, Multimedia Fusion, and Unity.

Jayjay I totally agree...

I'm sure some devs ARE using images which are too large, or using too many objects with pathfinder behaviour, and making many other noob mistakes when designing and developing their games!

But that doesn't mean we're all making those mistakes! I've read all of the different 'performance tips' advice in the manual (several time over), as I'm sure you have too!

We've adhered to all of the advice that's available, but we're still not getting the performance we need!?

OK, after my post and a long diskussion here i will give the community my problem as example. I hope that all the Kids, Parents, Teacher and all other people read this before they buying C2.

At First: C2 is a wonderful gamecreator with a great workflow. But at the end, when you will compile a game, comes actualy a very big problem with the Smartphone-Games!

Here my problem. I take in the links (not mybroken capx)! When i start a complete blank new project with only five small 2d cubes with physics the framerate goes unplayable down! My problem is this: My first game for Desktops are running beautyful. And hey, it was my first game with one year of hard work and learning. That i can not make Triple AAA StyleGames with C2 i knowledge. I am now 31. Began with playing Games on a c64! Gamebiz is not completly new land for me <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink">

i have learned that to finished a game is a very hard way!

After this Game (with Advert for a local bar) i have the idea for my next project: Classic Pinball in the good old Amiga 500Style: TopDown with scrolling (look on youtube the Games Pinball Fantasy or Pinball Dreams. Its perfect for Smartphones!!!! Landscape with scrolling (only 3 Screens long with left/right Touch, on score for tilt. I have complete make own fonts. Alone this has cost 3 Days (watch the Screenshots). I have the Idea that other Clubs or a corporation comes to make Advert in my Games for them.

Parallel i haved the luck, that a friend come to me and tell me that they make videos on youtube with a group and she says wants me for an interview. But this group has a timeline! Now is the Video online. I tell about in the second half of the video about the pinball-Game (see link). But this pinball-game is complete useless without physics. Pinball Dreams & Pinball Fantasy are form ´92 & ´93 with physics on a "!Amiga 500!". Look at WIKI the hardware from a Amiga 500!

Ashley! Look on the AdvertVideo from Construct 2! Thats tell me i can make Games with it. Its more a "Game-Maker-Simulation"! What brings me and all the other user this wonderful programm when the primary future not run. Compiling a Game without Framestops! I have buy 329.99 $!!!!

Utopic: When you finished that problem.... And a Boss from a club comes to me and say: Make a pinball-Game with club-theme for me for money...... After this problems with construct: "What do think i can tell him, Huh?!?! I fell so insecure! I have for the pinballproject in the last 4 Month learnd Blender (See my pics in the link) Completly 3D Artwork.

I have composed the Musik completly self (No musicmaker!) When other people goes to partys, meet friends and other things i am every night sit hopeful on this project!

Zsysmek has wrote this:

Prototyping tool? Yes

Education tool? Yes

Professional game development software? No

Do you really tell me that i have pay 329.99 $ for a Prototyping tool???? Holy Shit. A book about Unity or UnrealEngine are 30 or 40$!

The only solution is to send a capx to a two manCompany that they can search whats wrong with their own gamemaker????

I have the simply caps with only some physical Cubes test it in many of combination in Intel XDK. Thats not normal! Call C2 "Early Access on Steam and not exploit creative people they make there batteries empty for a C2 Project, thats on the end not run! Oh, and for Betatests i take usally 329.99 $ per month <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink">

Its very hard for me to tell you that in this hard words! But i have now the third day without sleeping!!!! That Scirra is a small team its ok for me! But look on Steam:

-Sir you are being hunted (one man)

-The Spatials (2 Bros. ) TIPP!!!! Famous Game!

-Elite

-The Banished (one)

-The Good Life (2 -3)

-Evochron (one)

-Citie Skylines (9)

Thats all Projects with a small team. But the different is: This Games run without problems! And i am sure: When i search for programs (not games) on google: I Found many! After all these years with your words of patience i will believe you nothing! You have became a lot of money from people! Noone has tell me after my buy that i need a 3rd Party Software (Intel XDK) with registration and everytime i load up my projects to people i am not know who are this people! Sensible-Project-Datas! WTF!

But hey, i acept it.... When my results are running! But dont......

I use Dropbox only for the games. 10 $ at month.

That what i want after all this shit: A clear "TRUE" Statement about the next weeks (not a post in the forum)! You can not say that C2 V 2.0.0 is finished and saying now are the updates are fewer because you make now C3 with this heavently problems about Smartphones......... I have this after 100 of hours and 329.99$ for nothing deserved! And many other people too! I will not damage Scirra, but this what you have say and make in the last monts is near a deception.

Scirra can not boast that they are only 2 people when nothing run round! I will you not dictate over your work. But i think after all this problems (read all the other posts) that a team with more people have make a better work! And yeah, in C2 are a lot of roadworks. But the main Feature runs not normal!!!!! The compiler! And thats the Big Bang in a gameEngine!!!!!!

OK, this is my last post. I Think the right people have read it here.

I talked here complete naked over my plans and what i have make the last years. In the Video you can hear my realname and and and. Thats not my plan but when i have only one kid or his father assured that they dont buy this software, i have my mission complete here!

PS: The Smartphone-problem is not new. I am very suprised i see the lot of many postings about this!

Over and Done

Links:

My First Project (Jump and Run) without problems (desktop)

Liquid Gold

https://www.dropbox.com/s/1kis5ezg5thgt ... n.rar?dl=0 (Windows)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/l3at2j4r8gscs ... X.rar?dl=0 (MAC)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/qh8alme15786d ... 2.rar?dl=0 (Linux)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/9kbhufqmiu0af ... 4.rar?dl=0 (Linux 64 Bit)

-----------------------------------------------

My personal 9/11:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/nl1sfwdqgeha6 ... 3.bmp?dl=0 (The Screenshot Table Pinball)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/58ko0mucp5wfk ... 2.bmp?dl=0 (The Bonusgame without physics it run beatyful)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/58ko0mucp5wfk ... 2.bmp?dl=0

The Video(Interview sry its in german/second half about the game):

Hmm, i dont know: But in my Brain i see the Scirrateam makes party/drink beer for the 2.0.0 Milestone and in the self time i lost many of my hairs because the stress and a buggy/unready 2.0.0!

Here are a lot of people the want make Games.

Look on Steam the Games Organ Trail or super amazing wagon adventure. When i can not make this art of games why i have buy for this shit here????!?!?!

BasicTribe

Painful read man. I feel for you.

My question is, why does mobile performance suck so much??

Is it entirely the fault of the 3rd party wrappers?

I bought a personal license because I love the editor.

I made a very simple game, no physics, one layout, just using bullet behaviour, performance with Crosswalk 10 left a lot to be desired, Crosswalk 7 was at least playable. But I was shocked.

Jayjay

Crosswalk on mobiles can't play crappybird test in 60fps, 100% smooth, without 0 jittering. And it is just 1 bird + 2 pipes with bullet behavior.

BasicTribe

unfortunetly Scirra's approach is not professional. But hey, according to Ashley Google is very rich and they have thousands of workers, so sooner or later they will come and help us. We just have to wait a few more months / years.

I think there are some very good posts here and I share some of the frustration. I bought c2 to make mobile games after learning to use Corona SDK (a bit), but the lack of editor and writing code were killing me...

So... other mobile game dev tools encourage the multiple drawing of sprites at 1x, 2x, 4x etc resolution so there is no need to GPU scale the images to fit screen resolution. Each tick the objective is to draw, say, 960x640 pixels with no scaling work, just drawing to canvas pixel to pixel. Add in a couple of layers of objects with transparency, blend, lots of objects etc and each layer can add a draw data rate of upwards of 37mb/s of data.... A full HD display might demand 124 mb/s of data per layer for each pixel to be drawn...

So, coming from Corona it was tempting to get swept away by the promise of new tech - easily scaled images, no need to create and load a batch of bespoke images for differences resolutions, back to front renderer will efficiently draw everything... And so on.

The truth, for mobile and desktop, is that the engine seems to easily permit the dev to create a GPU bottleneck. Create a game full of scaled objects that each take up a large screen area and overlap each other - and the needless drawing of each screen pixel many times over is uncontrollable and can result in gb/s of wasted data flow as pixels are redrawn over and over again, back to front, until the final image is created. 60 times per second.

Because of the way browsers draw 2d I don't see a solution, only a continuing need to minimise overlapping objects that fill layers with transparencies that have to be drawn. Which is counter intuitive because the editor encourages you to use your imagination and create a super parallax world with scaled objects. That's not the editors fault, it's the way the browsers draw each frame.

Instead of a back to front renderer we need a front to back renderer, with camera culling and an algorithm to stop drawing the scene when/if all pixels are drawn. Something like a 3d engine that won't draw the sky in full hd detail every frame because you're actually in a room and the sky is not visible right now... Yeah, right...

It also seems that many GPUs are full of 3d loving but 2d has been relatively forgotten about. Where's the 2d acceleration option?

Long diatribe over. I'm going back to making sure I don't have to many objects overlapping and checking that hi res detail on upscale is off...

And I forgot to add that browsers don't care if a frame is dropped, and neither does the c2 engine. I think if there was an option to set an engine clock that worked then that would be a start.

I mean, how can the engine cope with a 144 hz monitor when it frame drops at 60 hz? The answer is it giddy-ups - we need a giddy-up method so each frame is considered important, because we're making games and not online forms.

Edit - I know, the above is actually Google/Mozilla/MSN controlled and our games cannot dictate their own render clock...

BasicTribe - I just don't know what to do! I have asked for a .capx and performance measurements, so I can do testing, profiling and comparisons on a range of mobile devices in our office. You wrote a very long post but did not include anything I can test on mobile: only compiled versions of a desktop game (which didn't seem to be interactive, but otherwise ran fine), and screenshots and a video, which aren't helpful for me (I need to be able to run profiles and test on mobile devices). So I really wanted to try and help by examining your project but you don't seem to want to cooperate. I regularly test a wide range of devices and I have never seen such severe performance issues as you describe. This is what I was talking about: people complain bitterly and make it impossible for me to help. What am I supposed to do about this?

Instead of a back to front renderer we need a front to back renderer

I've investigated this, but it's very difficult. Any image which contains a single pixel which does not have an alpha of either 0% or 100% cannot be drawn front-to-back, since its correct rendering depends on being rendered on top of the things underneath it. If a project contains mostly images which have alpha, then a front-to-back renderer will still be forced to render back-to-front. Even a single image with alpha will interrupt the front-to-back flow, forcing it to render back-to-front everything which that image depends on. This is very complicated!

3D games do use front-to-back rendering which is one reason they can run so well in comparison to 2D games. A well-designed 3D game can actually use a lot less fillrate than a 2D game. The fact 2D games very commonly use alpha blending in images is quite a difficulty.