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How many of you guys HATE using C2?

  • Now, the tittle sounds bad, in reality, i LOVE contruct 2, so, what do i mean when i say that i hate using C2?

    well, c2 is the greates software ever, this software gives me the opportunity of making a great game, but there is something that i cant get out of my head.

    Have you guys who dont know how to program ever felt like noobs? i kinda know programing, but its on a very useless language, Visual Basic i was quite adept at it, and im starting to learn C++ right now, but for now im using C2, and everytime i come across a bug, problem, limitation, i feel like a noob, many times i say to myself something like this for example:

    "-God, this sucks, i dont know how to make this sprite move like i want it to do, i bet that a real programmer would do this without a problem"

    or

    "-UUUGH! this bug is driving me nuts! i have tried everything i know and no one in the forums could help me, im going to have to remove this feature from my game, since its causing this bug, becuase i can't fix it, im forced to remove it, i know that a programmer would know how to make it perfect without problems for sure"

    do you guys get what i feel? i feel noob and sometimes my self-confidence goes down, why im triying to compete in a professional field against professionals? even when my game looks great, still, what happens if a bug happens thats out of my hands? and im forced to tell my costumers:

    "-Sorry! but i dont know how to fix the problem, i dont know how to program"

    i feel sometimes, like a simple peasant compared to the gods that are the programmers, C2 has nothing to do with this, the engine it self its gold, but i cant help to feel this way, especially when i see people doing extremely complex math, who else gets this feeling too? please share

    -Luna

  • Nobody really ever knows what they are doing, they just do their best to get along.

  • Logic + Problem Solving + Trial & Error + Experience is all you need... the tool doesn't much matter.

  • that comes with experience, but some sort of rules can get you pretty much out of most troubles.

    -When does the issue happen/under which circumstances? (can help identifying the event or behavior).

    -what is the problem, and what is meant to happen normally? (very important, if you just don't know what you are doing and go sorta like "well, that feels kind of good, we will keep it", change how you work)

    -what could cause the problem? (kind of hard to inspect, but rememeber that in case you cannot identify it, there is an entire community here that may be able to awnser your question, to be fair, if you present your issue in a way similar to a bug report (aka. simplified capx to show the issue, explaining what you want to have, with some screenshots to be precise), I do not see how anyone would have a hard time awnsering you.)

    -clean is love, clean is life: do not get messy with your events, you have to be able to read everything you have done without too much trouble (for very complex or repetitive parts, isolations into functions can help).

    I recommand having a really clear idea of what you want to achieve before implementing it, sometimes I have discussions that go like that:

    "what is the problem?

    My object does not shoot like it should.

    how should it shoot?

    Idk. how you would make it shoot?

    That is not my game, I can make suggestions, but I cannot help you doing what you want if you do not know already"

    mostly planning ahead, good use of the tools (which are described in the fabulous manual), organisation.

    that was the part to help, now the real part.

    It happens to me, and not to me, you have this "why it does not work, did I made something wrong??" feeling sometimes, when that happens and you cannot identify the problem, stop, take a breath, do soemthing else, come back, and analyse later, if you still cannot figure it, try to get some help, but I understand this frustration that can come from a lack of organisation or working too much. Find a good rythm, it might be better to work just 5 hours efficiently than forcing you to work 8 hours with the brain that goes on strike, sometimes even then that does not work, rethinking the design can be of help (not do something else completely, but do the thing you wanted without thinking the same way), those are frustrations that even a programmer can fell, because doing a game is an hard work => it is translating the concepts, ideas, mechanics, into a way the computer can understand, that part cannot be understated, and is coming with every tool out there.

  • That's why instead of long events I break them in to smaller parts, put them in to separate event sheets and chain them with functions most of the time. Much easier to find an issue if there is one.

    But what pisses me off about construct is that I just can not do certain things with events. Like the infamous solid behavior limitations.

  • Far as I'm concerned, the behaviors and all the built in stuff are to blame. Most other engines have you make your own platform engines and such, as well as level editors, data tools, etc. With C2 you don't really learn much of anything...so if you start with C2 you'll likely always be a "noob". Not to say I don't appreciate behaviors and all, but ultimately we'd be better off with more features to make our own exactly how we want..

  • Far as I'm concerned, the behaviors and all the built in stuff are to blame. Most other engines have you make your own platform engines and such, as well as level editors, data tools, etc. With C2 you don't really learn much of anything...so if you start with C2 you'll likely always be a "noob". Not to say I don't appreciate behaviors and all, but ultimately we'd be better off with more features to make our own exactly how we want..

    well. one (more than one actually) can argue easily that when using C2, you do not really want to learn those aspects first anyway, and it does not prevent from understanding them or even recreate them (it is possible to do a game without using any behaviors nor system maths expressions, not worth the time however, but that is not the point), while most engines Forces you into doing this, while C2 actually makes you learn at your own pace while being organised, and more into a game designer way than a programmer way. Of course nothing will force people to learn, but my point: if someone wants to not stay a noob, he can do so, but if peopel do not want, well, there is no forcing them.

  • Weird thread... in my experience Construct2 works perfectly and flawlessly. Try to avoid blaming the tool for your own shortcomings, instead learn how to use the tool properly. That's what I believe is the way to behave when you're in this business. Always be ready to learn and adapt.

    If you feel you'd be doing better with actual programming, then go learn that, it will always be a great thing to learn a new tool. But I really don't think the tool even matter that much; Construct2, just like any other tool, allows you to do pretty much the same thing in the end (as long as it's 2D =P). And just like you would need to invest a great deal of time learning C++, Javascript, C#, or any language really, you could just the same learn how to use Construct2 =)

    But bad news, if you think C2 is hard and unforgiving, I don't even want to imagine how you'll feel learning actual programming xP

  • Far as I'm concerned, the behaviors and all the built in stuff are to blame. Most other engines have you make your own platform engines and such, as well as level editors, data tools, etc. With C2 you don't really learn much of anything...so if you start with C2 you'll likely always be a "noob". Not to say I don't appreciate behaviors and all, but ultimately we'd be better off with more features to make our own exactly how we want..

    Can't say I quite agree with you on this one. Overly relying on behaviors will indeed leave you in the dark on how certain things actually work. But the way the C2 event system works will teach you a lot about programming in general. Because it is just that: programming. Without having to care about syntax.

    Regarding many things you can apply the same logic to jump into Javascript (for example)relatively quickly. And that will enable you to do your own plugins. Which then enables you to do even more things exactly how you want.

    So I do believe you can start out with C2 and it isn't a given that you'll always stay a "noob".

    Anyway, from the OP I rather got the idea this was a casual thread about things that can be annoying in development and hard to figure out, especially if you're not a rather math savvy coder type. Which would be a far greater issue if it wasn't for C2 of course. Many if not the majority of users wouldn't be developing games if it wasn't for Construct.

    That being said, I also do know the feeling very well not being able to figure something out that seemed trivial when you were planning it in your head. It's easy to feel stupid and overthink stuff in an endeavor as complex as game development. And I do bet it also happens to people with a real coding background from time to time.

  • Sure C2 can teach some very high level programming concepts. I meant you don't learn how to do a lot of things yourself which in turn make you a better programmer and more confident in your abilities. Like...probably half of the feature requests I see are for things you can already do with events, but people don't even realize it because they rely so heavily on behaviors and never learned the code. The solid exception feature megatronx just brought up is a great example. People using other engines have already made that feature themselves decades ago with no trouble whatsoever...meanwhile we've been begging for Ashley to add it to the behaviors for 2 years now.

    And sure you can still make your own behaviors with events but I bet you half this community doesn't know how because no one posts that sort of thing...they too just use the behaviors. Thus they are forever stuck in that "noob" phase and limited to the behaviors feature sets.

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  • HI! im glad to see that you guys have a lot to say n.n

    fisrt of all, I LOVE C2 im not putting my faults on c2 , in fact im very good at fixing bugs and problem solving, but sometimes i see things made by programmers, and it puts everything i have done into shame, for example how would you make the AI of Age of Empires 2 on C2? game like Transistor wich has some extremely complicated mechanics? its a pain in the butt make an isometric game in C2, let alone all the mechanics of Transistor.

    The biggest thorn in my foot, its complicated math, i dont know how you guys would use sin() , cubic(a, b, c, d, x), qarp(a, b, c, x) etc

    i still have problem with lerp and clamp

    im doing my best, but im afraid that when my game come out, people will make fun of me for making the game on Cosntruct 2.

    many people see engines like Contruct2 and Game Maker as baby toys, i dont like it :/

    if i could find a programmer to take my place, i would do it, i think im putting in danger all the work of my boyfriend, the pression sometimes crushes me

  • I had made more than 180 plugins.

    For me, there is no different between C2 (VPL) and other text code language. Or I would said C2 is another structuralize text code, which leaving GUI script interface for tool users.

  • rexrainbow

    hehehe well, you are a god to me, i love all your plugins, i swear im going to name a NPC on one of my games as you

    maybe you could share something that you cant do? i would be surprised of hearing about one

  • You know, I know a bit of JS, but I have no desire to learn those things. Maybe if I would clone myself. I'd expect software to work out of the box. Mantra is that we can do anything in it, which i'm not finding this to be absolutely true. Its logic doesn't consider all of possibilities. I've been using construct since around cc 0.3x , which gives me about 6 years of on and off experience. And i think there could be more actions and plugins that would bypass mundane but lengthy chains of events we have to write in order to get something as simple as in game menu working. There should be Menu plugin done already! And inventory plugin with many options to choose from! Platform behavior that will not lag when you control two characters at the same time. If a rex Platform Plus works better, and actually 100% awesome ( rexrainbow your the boss dude! ), then the plugin that came originally with the soft, it does tell me something baffling. And outside plugins realm: Visual array editor, particles preview, and such ! On top of that the exporters issue. I just started working on my new project, and even thought I have beefy pc, and only 3 objects on screen, jiggers are there, in preview, and they are daunting.

    I do make my own behaviors with events ( or use community made plugins ) if needed. But only some of them I can keep in separate sheets ( to keep things organised ) and call them trough functions, because "Wait" action do not work with "Trigger once" events. Why is that? It's a logic flaw of the software or mine. I believe, that when the goal is to make as friendly program as possible, one must take in to account what would be most useful features that would let the designer work fast. And c2 is only partly there in my opinion, as I already noticed long time ago that it is build from the point of few of a programmer and not from the point of view of a designer/artist. But I'm not ranting. In case of solid behavior, I have had try many ways to go around it's limitations, using events, and the prototype work clunky at best. And overall I'm pretty good with c2 logic. I learned what I can and can not do in it, and I work with that when designing my game. And the way it works is hierarchical, so you got to know in advance what are you doing. So take that sheet of paper and plan groups within groups, because otherwise you'll end up in a junkyard of duplicated events that will clattered logic of your game and ultimately you wont finish it.

  • Lunatrap I see what you mean, but that is normal: not everyone has the same capacities (I am fairly decent with math, but then I see what rojo is doing, and I am like "... of course, that does make sense.. I think... I guess... I do not know... who wants some cake?"), but it is all about learning how and when to use the tools, and maths is one of them (the calculs themselves are not that important, what they can do is).

    If you can gather some maths books (I do not know your age/situation/etc.) that matches your current maths skills, you could learn some things.

    lerp(a, b, x) is used to get a value from a percentage.

    a is the minimum

    b is the maximum

    x is the percentage (from 0 to 1)

    at x=0, you have the minimum (a), at x=1, you have the maximum (b)

    it is basically the same thing as what people use to scale a lifebar relative to the health.

    clamp is used to keep a value between two boundaries

    exemple, I want my health to be between minimum and maximum when I substract damage

    set health to clamp(health-damage, minimum, maximum) will guarantee that health will not go over maximum, nor under minimum.

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