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Is Clickteam Fusion 2.5 worth buying on sale?

  • yes Ashley but other products offer native exports. any thoughts about leave html5 and go to native?maybe in another (side) project not construct. did you ever think about it?

  • spy84 Is no use, this was requested a lot of times before but Ashley is set only on HTML5. While I see the advantages of HTML5, in practice there are a lot of drawbacks.

    I also have GM:S Pro + Android exporter (12$ on Humble Bundle) and Clickteam Fusion 2.5 (27€ Steam Sale). And now that I will have some time on my hands I will try both and see witch one I keep (I can still refund CF 2.5 in 14 days).

    I've made around 1800$ profit with Construct 2 and I've learned a lot of useful stuff, but the "no native" is starting to become a problem. Adding 60 MB ~100 MB to a simple platform game is not good and the performance on mobiles is hit or miss. Also, we stay at the mercy of node.js or other wrappers.

    I will still use C2 for prototyping my games (is easier, faster and better than pencil and paper) and wait to see C3, but in the meantime I will try another engine.

  • TGeorgeMihai thats too sad ( about html5 i mean). i asked ashley but to tell you the truth i dont expect really an answer. people wants stability and less headaches when their games come out to the public so they want native. as i see and read here over the years users of c2 wants native or almost native exporters to mobile. we stuck to cjs or cocoon.io and xdk, cordova and as we waiting for things to go smoother and more stable over the years this expectation fades out. I dont see so many interest or the same whining anymore for mobile. Either people left either the idea of not expecting something dramatically better grows inside our minds for good all those years and we let it go. Now over a year i see the results of this "no mobile anymore" idea turn our interest to desktop cause feels safer than mobile. But even here i see some projects like "slain" for example to change from c2 to another engine for i supposed more security? so im wondering is anybody here who really his priority is to make html5 games or stuck with scirra because of the easiness to make things happen, surrounded by the feeling or hope to wait and see in the future maybe things get better?

    anyway the reason to write my thoughts was the post of ashley cause the whole post under the name "should i buy clickteam fusion' is ..ok how to say it a little bit disrespectful? but i can understand and feel the topic starter's thoughts. maybe a side project is a good idea like the revive of construct classic which i thing was native? everybody will be happy to have the choice but at the end who am i to give business directions?

  • I've answered it so many times I am just super tired of typing it out over and over again. I think I need to write up a definitive blog post on our position on this.

    For example, we see a lot of "mobile performance sucks in C2", and then it turns out their game hammers the GPU fillrate, so it would not be faster in a native engine!

  • Agree with Ashley there. Too many people complaining about mobile performance when they clearly don't know the limitations of mobile development. Just because you can make something in C2 and can export for mobile doesn't mean that it will play well on mobile. I've learnt the hard way. Investigated what's going on under the hood, what features to use and what not to use.

    X - Don't use webGl effects - They are neat but usually heavy & not useful for mobile.

    X - Don't use Force own texture on layers.

    X - Don't use constantly updating Text object if you can do the same with Spritefont.

    X - Don't use particles, unless it's very simple and low amount of particles.

    X - Don't expect heavy amount of physics to run well.

    X - Don't update things every tick unless you have to. Use 'Every X Seconds'

    X - Don't use big images with large areas of overlap.

    * - Always limit your Top level events. The less events the the engine has to go through each tick the better.

    * - Group event's and only activate groups when needed, close when not needed.

    * - Use smart and cheap ways of picking objects & Structure your conditions accordingly.

    * - Disable collisions for objects that don't need it. (Personally I think this should be disabled by default)

    * - Keep an eye on memory, cpu, fps, draw calls, ammount of sprites, etc

    * - Study and try different approaches of doing the same thing in a smarter/cheaper ways.

    If your game is not performing well, it's probably not because C2, it's probably because you don't know what the hell you're doing, and have no clue what the mobile limitations are.

  • tunepunk "If your game is not performing well, it's probably not because C2, it's probably because you don't know what the hell you're doing, and have no clue what the mobile limitations are."

    maybe you are right but ive got 2 things to say.

    1st i remember when the same capx with cocoon gave me lets say 25-30 fps when xdk 5-8 fps (sometimes a gray or blue screen) and then after sometime xdk gave better performance than cocoon and so on and on and on. so yes the same game with the same engine gives different results. despite the bugs of both wrappers who of course scirra has nothing to do with (but it lead us there - in 3rd parties.) it doesnt seem to me that something wrong a dev does but the wrappers dont do the job right. or at least in the past now i dont know im not interested anymore.

    2nd are you sure that the same assets with the same logic in different engines like c2 fusion and stencyl have the same performance in mobile? if its the same then yes the dev has no clue if not? so dont be whats the correct word in english definite? about that if a game not performing well then the dev dont know what he is doing. i wrote about a game called slain wich starts with construct 2 and ends with unity (not for mobile for desktop) and also another game wich i dont remember now how it called for performance issues.

    Ashley not need to make a blog post but when you post something like this "Construct 2 has major, transformative features that are missing in other products. Imagine working without sub-events."

    i am sorry but other engines can make and have under their belts great or at the moment greater and more complicated games and yes i can imagine to not have subevents and its terrible but i can imagine native and is wonderful

  • spy84 If your game is running at 25-30fps at best (I don't know what phone you got those reuslts on) you probably have a lot of optimization to do. Anything below full 60fps, on a mid range device is unacceptable if you are developing for mobile. I'm getting almost constant full 60fps (with a few dips) on a lower end mid range phone (2 year old - Lumia 830). using 1280x720 window size, linear sampling, 3000x3000 layoutsize, isometric with z ordering, approximately 800 objects in layout, with 4 player multiplayer using photon. Yeah... I've spent a year grinding and trying out stuff, and learning and optimizing so now the game I even running on a 50€ low end phone at around 15-30fps, and get around same results which ever wrapper I use.

  • I own both CF2.5 Developer Edition and Construct 2 Early Adopter Edition (you can check my badge). Personally, I think they're both worth buying.

    CF2.5 for $34 sounds fantastic. Even though both products have a new version upcoming, both will offer discounts for old users. However, keep in mind that developing for CF is torture: the event system is really ancient, and nowhere near the level we're used to with construct.

    Unfortunately, as you can see by their release log, they move at a snail's pace. Clickteam Fusion 2.5 is basically just a rebranding of "Multimedia Fusion 2" with very few changes, and that was released in 2006. Since then, all we heard from clickteam were new exporters, because they suck up all available manpower. Clickteam Fusion 2.5 was released in 2013, and we've seen no major changes since then.

    Also, while construct 3 will be "just an editor upgrade", don't underestimate how much things will improve. I think it's a testament to the reliability of the engine that it's being reused for C3.

    It may seem like I'm hating on clickteam, but that's just because I'm comparing their product to what it could become if it wasn't for their focus on native exporters (which is one of the reasons their community is dying while ours is thriving). They really do have a sweet product that I don't regret purchasing. If you guys want to see the difference that a native exporter makes, it's seriously worth a shot - though, as Ashley says, you may find that the performance gains may not turn out to be as big as you were expecting.

    So, yeah, it's worth buying, but don't expect any extras. What you have now is what you'll have in the future.

  • Agree with Ashley there. Too many people complaining about mobile performance when they clearly don't know the limitations of mobile development. Just because you can make something in C2 and can export for mobile doesn't mean that it will play well on mobile. I've learnt the hard way. Investigated what's going on under the hood, what features to use and what not to use.

    X - Don't use webGl effects - They are neat but usually heavy & not useful for mobile.

    X - Don't use Force own texture on layers.

    X - Don't use constantly updating Text object if you can do the same with Spritefont.

    X - Don't use particles, unless it's very simple and low amount of particles.

    X - Don't expect heavy amount of physics to run well.

    X - Don't update things every tick unless you have to. Use 'Every X Seconds'

    X - Don't use big images with large areas of overlap.

    * - Always limit your Top level events. The less events the the engine has to go through each tick the better.

    * - Group event's and only activate groups when needed, close when not needed.

    * - Use smart and cheap ways of picking objects & Structure your conditions accordingly.

    * - Disable collisions for objects that don't need it. (Personally I think this should be disabled by default)

    * - Keep an eye on memory, cpu, fps, draw calls, ammount of sprites, etc

    * - Study and try different approaches of doing the same thing in a smarter/cheaper ways.

    If your game is not performing well, it's probably not because C2, it's probably because you don't know what the hell you're doing, and have no clue what the mobile limitations are.

    Or simply is HTML5's or wrapper's fault. Come on, today we can run 1080p/4k content and play HD games without any issue on our phones, but can't run a f*cking 2D game, we need to optimize the s*it out of it ?

    I've compiled to Android a few GM:S demos and examples that I've found on the internet. They were pretty complex (intended for desktop) and guess what ? They ran great on my Galaxy S4. And were compiled with the basic option, there is also an option that automatically optimizes stuff even better.

    Here a clear example of how the "export HTML5 only" affects in the long run: http://www.perfectly-nintendo.com/the-n ... e-to-wii-u

    So yeah, If he made that game in any other engine that had at least one native exporter (C++ or C#) he wouldn't had to remake the game.

    Anyway, I've made my choice. While CF 2.5 is a little faster to develop, I've had it with 3rd party exporters, so I will go for GM:S (all exporters included and better documentation). It's a shame, because I really liked developing with C2. Would be great as a visual scripting interface for Unity (like Playmaker, but only better).

  • Or simply is HTML5's or wrapper's fault. Come on, today we can run 1080p/4k content and play HD games without any issue on our phones, but can't run a f*cking 2D game, we need to optimize the s*it out of it ?

    I feel your frustration. I'm testing my project on an intel hd4000 laptop (the kind that a kid might own...) and I'm struggling to maintain 60 fps in Chrome with only a few on-screen sprite blending effects (960x540 integer scaling). The back-to-front renderer used in c2 will always be problematic for performance on low end devices (I recall a front-to-back renderer failed beta - and I never understood why an orthographic 3d camera was not chosen to take advantage of gpu 3d support...). Anyway, I've been using c2 as a hobbyist for 5 years now and it's proven to be a superb tool for learning and prototyping... But some elements feel incomplete and don't appear to ever be updated (shadowlight: one per layer! / no platform collision filtering / physics lacks many box2d features / asm.js physics joints can be inexplicably stretchy / etc).

    But as far as exporting a project as a commercial entity to anywhere beyond the likes of Newgrounds/Kongregate (without full api support), c2 users will always be at the mercy of wrappers and the associated never ending cycle of updates, bugs, and updates, and... etc. I suspect that these things will be the same in another 5 years - as browser tech changes the wrappers will always be playing catch-up (anyone remember Impact.js & cocoonjs..?).

    I will continue to use c2 with joy to complete my current multiplayer project and for tinkering with game ideas, just because the event system is amazingly intuitive and it's ideal for prototyping. Perhaps, in 5 years, the novelty of html5 will have reduced and in-browser performance will permit a more stable 60 fps (ie webgl export) for c2 games. But all of these are why I just bought Playmaker...

    So, to the OP, find something you will enjoy using - a tool that won't be beyond your abilities and will allow you to realise your dreams - and get stuck in. Just make sure you test on your target hardware to ensure that you don't become unexpectedly disappointed.

  • Perhaps some if the issues are due to the platform behaviour. Reason for this line of thought: I notice most people who never run into any slow-down issues (besides possibly having a way-better computer than the average Steam user and phone) are not using the platform behaviour. Although, The Next Penelope had to go native to get on console (WiiU to start) too, but that might just be because WiiU had no WebGL support.

    Meanwhile, every game I've made with the platform behaviour in C2 tends to be noticeably slower, jankier, and buggier (slopes) than my current native-engine progress in Unity, or even previous work in Construct Classic. Anyone else notice this?

  • * - Disable collisions for objects that don't need it. (Personally I think this should be disabled by default)

    Great list. However I think disabling collisions by default should be a setting for the editor for those who prefer it.

    As I said before, I say it again. It's always a good idea to try out other engines and see how they fit your needs. Just keep in mind that there are other aspects for creating a game than just pure performance. If you chose a native engine and get +4 FPS while you game takes +6 months to create, does it worth it?

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  • Ashley super tired of repeating herself..

    Probably not easy to make something new, if you have no idea what the hell you are doing..

    Just my 2 pennies.

  • pka4916

    Ashley is actually a he

  • Mark Zuckerberg called Facebook's HTML5 app "one of the biggest mistakes if not the biggest strategic mistake that we made."

    Facebook took 8 months building their app in HTML5, then 4 more months to realize it was impossible to get the quality they wanted from it and decided to change directions, then a long time building the entire thing again from the ground up in native code for Android and iOS. They bet on HTML5 heavily too, and he called it; "one of the biggest if not the biggest strategic mistake that we made." And I think the software engineers at Facebook probably know what they're doing when it comes to coding....

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