Construct games limits

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  • Greetings Constructors.

    I heard construct's limit is imagination. In spite of that, Construct games I have seen are platformers or top-view shooter/walker types.

    I also heard - one year ago -, creating bigger games can be painful with construct. May be that is the reason that there are very few finished games and they're so similar to each other?

    Would be fine to find original games, or of other genres like RTS, etc.

    These functionalities are built in Construct, why can't we see them implemented?

    When will CC or C2 be mature enough to use all the built-in features?

    bye and ave.

  • In spite of that, Construct games I have seen are platformers or top-view shooter/walker types.

    You won't see many other genres in similar programs either. RTS games are kinda pointless unless you have online play, and imo are horrible in 2D, not to mention incredibly complicated to make. RPGs are also incredibly complicated; I've seen like...2 successful/completed RPGs made in programs like Construct. There are a few racing, puzzle, and shmup games made in Construct as well..ya just gotta look for them!

    Would be fine to find original games, or of other genres like RTS, etc.

    These functionalities are built in Construct, why can't we see them implemented?

    There is an RTS movement behavior, sure, but you need a lot more than that to actually make an RTS game..That's not to say they aren't possible to make, just that people generally aren't willing to put so much work into a niche game.

    When will CC or C2 be mature enough to use all the built-in features?

    I don't understand what you mean; all of the default behaviors you get with Construct Classic are completed and ready to go. Construct 2, however..who knows :)

  • Would be fine to find original games, or of other genres like RTS, etc.

    Not very relevant criticism here, the first topic in "your creations" is a blackjack, second is a platformer, third a tank game, then a 3d rts, following an animation engine...

    scirra.com/forum/your-creations_forum32.html

    Else... is it me, or do we get a lot of users trying to start flamewars lately?

  • I don't think he's trying to start a flamewar, I think he's simply not as familiar with a lot of the stuff that's come out. I'm working on an RPG, was working on a shmup, an action platformer, a bunch of other ideas, and made a small music player and a painting program.

    If you want something different/unusual, there's quazi's thumb war game. There is other stuff out there - the problem is games take a long time to make!

    My opinion stands, CC is usable as it is, though it can be tricky at times working around its quirks.

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  • You have to remember most of the plugs that come with Construct Classic are very basic, and the reason for that is that if they add to much, they add the risk of locking a user into a certain type of a certain genre, and that's something the devs wanted to avoid.

    So basically yeah the limit is your imagination, but then again everything has its drawbacks.

  • Yeah, remember the time needed for huge projects! A group of ten to twenty developers might be able to get a full-featured rpg done in 2-3 years. Now Construct developers mostly work in much smaller teams - if not alone. But Construct doesn't exist that long - about 4 years.

    If you're missing a professional rts - why don't you give it a try and be the first one to present it, Idmn?

    I'm looking forward to it - let's meet again in a year? <img src="smileys/smiley1.gif" border="0" align="middle" />

  • RTS games are kinda pointless unless you have online play, and imo are horrible in 2D, not to mention incredibly complicated to make.

    For online, this is true but thanks to SciDave's online plugin there is starting to be a point in making one.

    Command and Conquer was best before it went 3D.

    They are complicated to make though, this will probably remain true when making a good RTS is attempted sadly =/

  • I have to agree with his main point - it's significantly harder to make a game with a significantly more complex genre than the other games (RPGs are going to be much more complicated than a shooter). Of course, the lack of a developed scripting system (and don't get me started on integrating events and Python) and not-so-great support with data structures (whaddaya mean, you have to set array elements in the Event Sheet!?) make technical stuff a lot more interesting.

    Still, the only real limitations to making more complex games in Construct are time and effort. Making an RTS or an RPG would be harder than making a shooter or platformer in any engine - Game Maker, Unity, the Unreal Development Kit. You gotta work hard, and you gotta work hard for a while, but it's possible.

  • Of course, the lack of a developed scripting system (and don't get me started on integrating events and Python)

    just want to take a moment to double disagree.

    I made a stable multithousand line/event scripted thingy animator at one point, prior to alot of rojo's recent python tweaks and fixes. like all construct you have to learn the particulars of using it, but the scripting is very powerful. the second reason for disagreeing is scripting is actually not needed in construct to make almost any game. it's when you want to do something weird like drag and drop images onto your game or something, and there isn't a plugin for it yet.

    as to the original post:

    if you search for anything made by quazi, tokinsom, davioware, konjak, pyteo, zotged, arsonide, saint11, or mary jane for some of the more polished stuff. also, arima's rpg, if you can hunt down vids of that, to see more polished stuff. in that list you'll find a few different genres ranging from rpg, to infinite world space sim, to 3d thumbfighting, to shmup, to topdown survival horror.

    i think the previous answers were correct though. construct is very very young. it's been around for 4 years someone said? id say most active users haven't been here since the beginning, so factor the time it takes for them to get comfortable enough to tackle a large project, then either the time to tackle it alone, or build a team. so I think we're right around target :)

    also, I know a few of the aforementioned folks have been working on that killer game for a long time now. but definitely don't take it as construct being unable to handle it. the ide itself definitely has some kinks and quirks to work out, but it's superpowerful and flexible. I would say most 2d games out could have been created with construct, with the exception of vector graphics based games, assuming the user(s) had the time, and artists.

    edit:

    ot-so-great support with data structures (whaddaya mean, you have to set array elements in the Event Sheet

    I believe there's a visual array editor someone made at one point. also not sure the limitations of the competitors in this area to be honest. but, you can use python for c-like data structures, and/or the s plugin

  • What is a "shmup"? Slang for "shoot 'em up" or something else?

    =========

    Christian, ninja, warrior, Borg, Time Lord... I am that hero!

  • Yes GSPforChrist.

    More a contraction or dev/gamer slang.

  • Thanks dear sirs - arima, tokinsom, tulamide, lucid, others - for thy kind, long explanations now I am more enlightened - the community has showed its bright face to me.

    Thanx for mentioning Arsonide's, Quazi's, others' original games. Unfortunately I forgot about them, when asked my original question. To prevent this in the future, perhaps there should be a thread enlisting the videos and/or download links of all the great creations. Thus all newcomers would be quickly amazed - and this would be beneficial to recruit more fans. Perhaps we could have a top ten list of CC creations, based on fans' votes, to show the public the level of CC capability.

    Construct Classic is very charming and has a vivid, gr8 community but in spite of that, if creating games takes months or years then everything is understood. It was me who was impatient seeing this nice editor with so many possibilities but with so few creations. I don't know how many options, behaviors of Construct are generally used in games, but rarely used ones - like RTS bahavior - shouldn't get so much attention from developers, methinks. Rather, I would advise for C2 to aim for stability, but with less options. Thus perhaps creating big games wouldn't be a pain, and we could have some games for marketing purposes sooner.

    Mr. Tulamide, - yes, volunteers are welcome, - an RTS game creation would be a nice accomplishment, but I am more liable to choose proven paths, which have fine tutorials - not liking the idea of experimenting unforseen things, neither the idea of seeing you only in a year. <img src="smileys/smiley1.gif" border="0" align="middle" />

    What I don't like about Construct's finished games is: they are rather experiments than games, thus they generally don't achieve the level of enjoyment of 8 bit (arcade) games. Being the only exception perhaps Towerclimb and a few others. Although those games from the 80's were also made by individuals or very small teams (in assembly mostly), I wonder when will community creations be replayable and fun to play.

    What I also have experienced that these creations mostly use very few sprites, and they are not complex in gameplay - thus the target age group of these games would be quite low.

    All these impressions rise a question in me: how much does Construct speed up game development- with regard that old 8 bit games were also created by 1-2 people ? Today's standard programming languages would be more time consuming for sure, but perhaps Construct needs almost the same quantity of efforts if it has born so few games.

    As for the existing tutorials, the most popular game types - platformers and top view shooters - have entry level tuts. How nice it would be if the community would somehow organize (and donate?) the creation of more advanced level tuts. If only the gurus, who have already created games, helped somehow the community to cover this gap. This would speed up game creation in the long run and thus CC could have marketing products in the most beloved genres sooner. And if CC has good finished materials then it also has a good effect on C2 advertisement.

    Good luck to the team, and fun to the fans.

  • ldmn   Today's standard programming languages would be more time consuming for >>sure, but perhaps Construct needs almost the same quantity of efforts if it >>has born so few games.

    It impossible to say how much Construct speeds things up because there are so many variables. I can speak from experience in that I entered a Ludumdare competition a few years ago and made a game in Python/Pygame. I spent about 15 hours coding a game. The result is something I have since made in Construct (not the same game but something similar) in about 4 hours. This was a simple game and I had roughly equal skill in regards to Python and Construct.

    I'm more of a tinkerer of technology myself and always fascinated with latest music algorithm or socket library which is probably why I haven't made more of a full game....other people's reasons will vary.

    I have always wondered why we haven't seen more finished polished games but the obvious answers are money (if Construct Classic had been commercial then they could have advertised like crazy, hired more developers/testers, made all sorts of accessible tuts and videos,fancy website, paid game competitions, etc) and time (CC is very young and only recently in the past year has added more features like better Python support, networking, better bug fixes, etc). I think most people were waiting until 1.0 to make that big game... Now they can since 1.0 isn't coming and there is just CC.

    I wonder if I sponsored a 2 month, $5000 game challenge if a cool game would result. Not saying I would or anything...maybe a $100 buck challenge <img src="smileys/smiley2.gif" border="0" align="middle" />

  • I don't know how many options, behaviors of Construct are generally used in games, but rarely used ones - like RTS bahavior - shouldn't get so much attention from developers, methinks. Rather, I would advise for C2 to aim for stability, but with less options. Thus perhaps creating big games wouldn't be a pain, and we could have some games for marketing purposes sooner.

    That's where construct two is already at. C2 is far, far more stable than CC was at this point in its development. With more development time, it can be both stable and have the same number of options!

    All these impressions rise a question in me: how much does Construct speed up game development- with regard that old 8 bit games were also created by 1-2 people ? Today's standard programming languages would be more time consuming for sure, but perhaps Construct needs almost the same quantity of efforts if it has born so few games.

    That's really not a correct way to think about it. As scidave said, there are many variables that contribute to how long a game takes to make, such as:

    • The scope and complexity of the game
    • The number of hours a person is able to put into development each week
    • The number of people working on the game
    • If they know how to properly use the tools they working with
    • If they know how to program/design software properly
    • If there is multiple people, if they know how the work as a team so work progresses smoothly
    • If they know how to properly make a game - making bad design decisions will make it take longer to redo them, or having an inefficient workflow will make things take longer to make
    • If they have the determination to push through when it gets difficult
    • How perfectionistic the people are

    It goes on and on. My experience:

    • Making one of the most difficult genres, an RPG
    • Not working on it full time
    • Making it almost entirely alone
    • Didn't know how to use the tools properly when I started, resulting in the game taking more than a year longer than it needed to with thousands of events more than the game needed
    • Had no idea how to program or design software properly
    • Coded some features that ended up being unused

    If you take a look at the credits of games, there are usually a ton of people there even for simple casual games. These are seasoned professionals who know their stuff and even then it still takes many, many man hours for them to make a game. A lot of us here are in the hobbyist number of hours even if we want to make commercial games at some point. A lot, maybe even most of those same people are trying to do the work of an entire team by themselves.

    TL; DR: games take a long time to make, and in my opinion, the better you know how to use Construct, the quicker Construct makes it to develop a game.

  • Thanx Scidave, quite reasonable and understandable it is what you say. I agree with you, I also have Python/pygame experience and CC was much quicker in doing the job, although it created also errors, which I couldnt correct. But in the long run CC should be quicker and more productive.

    Arima, thanx for detailing all those variables of game creating, nice to see so many factors together.

    But, what you say about the credit of games is not relevant for me and for CC, I think. As a possible target for CC, I was talking about 8 bit programs, which I played some 20-25 years ago, like Manic Miner, Green Beret, Pyjamarama (ok, but not Last Ninja) etc. These is the right category for CC, and these are the simple games what I miss very much from CC creations.

    I began to do some platformer remake, but CC placed errors I think in my game (my sprites were teleporting weirdly), for which I also asked forum help in vain.

    But is it only me, who wants to make 8 bit remakes? Everyone develops some gigantic game?

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