Questions about C2's capability

  • Hey, all.

    I'm new to the video game development scene (been developing for tabletop before this), and as I look for tools to help me get started, I stumbled across Construct.

    Without getting too in depth, the game I want to make is essentially a turn-based RPG, but without character sprites to interact with a town. Basically when you "walk into a town," you're presented with a map with all of the locations in town, and you'd click/tap one to go to it. Similarly, with combat, everything would move in a classic Final Fantasy sort of way. Fight, Use an Item or Run type deal. Dungeons would be selected from a bounty board menu of sorts, and travel between hub areas would be accomplished through an overworld map.

    Is C2 capable of making something like this? It seems that the tools are more geared toward action-oriented games, and I haven't found much through scraping through the tutorials, but I'm not afraid of a little extra programming here and there (put that CSCI minor to use, I guess...).

    Thanks in advance for any help you guys can offer.

  • Sure it is !

    The big challenge is getting your events right , C-7 is working on a big RPG right now , and it's coming along pretty well !

    Making an RPG can be a hard task , and is an extremely overambitious task , as your first project , but it's possible

    Also , If your only needs are RPGs , you could aim for an RPG-based engine , like RPGmaker !

    But at the end , C2 is the best !

    Cheers , and I'm excited what the future holds us !

  • What exactly is it that makes RPGs hard? Is it combat mechanics? Programming? Dialogues?

    So far, I have leveling, stat and battle mechanics already worked out, albeit on paper. As far as programming goes, this isn't my first rodeo there. The story is worked out pretty much entirely, so that's at the bottom of my list of concerns for the moment. As I said, I've been working with tabletop RPGs fairly extensively, so I'm familiar with how to build individual game systems, conceptually.

    If it's something else, please let me know so I can start practicing that immediately. I know it's ambitious for a first video game, but my mission is to build the game(s?) that I want to play, but don't already exist. In my mind, at least, the world doesn't need another side scrolling platformer unless it brings something radically new to the table. I can't provide that, so I'm providing this.

  • It's not hard, just time consuming. So you're making an rpg. That's really cool. Could you say more about yourself?

  • What exactly is it that makes RPGs hard? Is it combat mechanics? Programming? Dialogues?

    So far, I have leveling, stat and battle mechanics already worked out, albeit on paper. As far as programming goes, this isn't my first rodeo there. The story is worked out pretty much entirely, so that's at the bottom of my list of concerns for the moment. As I said, I've been working with tabletop RPGs fairly extensively, so I'm familiar with how to build individual game systems, conceptually.

    If it's something else, please let me know so I can start practicing that immediately. I know it's ambitious for a first video game, but my mission is to build the game(s?) that I want to play, but don't already exist. In my mind, at least, the world doesn't need another side scrolling platformer unless it brings something radically new to the table. I can't provide that, so I'm providing this.

    All of this will be my personnal opinion:

    RPG are hard to program because of their complex nature, when you think about it, an RPG isn't only one game, it is more like One / multiples type of owerworld, a stats system (which should not have a broken stat, e.g. "when I level up this, I can one shot everything and never die"), One or more Combat system, with enemies that act more or less stupidely (a boss shouldn't try to attack you with and attack you protect yourself against), A story that keep the player interested (in that case, I think it isn't the biggest difficulty), and how to blend everything together, so the result is well done.

    When I say that it isn't just "One Game that is RPG", but multiple parts blended together, I can make a reference to the first generation of pok?mon games, where the battle system is just like another game, called with parameters (The Ennemi pok?mon, or trainer, etc..), also, a RPG is a long game, so you should learn how to save (you can use the saving of C2, or use something else to save, it is up to you, or even a Password system, who knows)

    Doing an RPG isn't like doing a big game, but more like multiples little parts of the game, then "plug" them all into the main part.So, it is more likely to make mistakes, and the pressure tends to be huge.But remember, if you are doing it, It is far from impossible, just more management is needed

    Thanks for reading that ^-^ (and sorry if this didn't make any sense in english ^^"')

    For Tl;Drs:A Rpg has a lot (even a lot?) of simple mechanics, but assemble all of them is an hard task.

  • C2 absolutely can handle the type of game you are describing.

    As far as the complexity with RPGs, that is a general statement. It wouldn't matter what you are making your game with.

    Plan your event sheets out well beforehand, treat them like classes if you are comfortable with programming -- they provide a huge amount of organization for your game. Beyond that, make great use with functions and plan out your local and global variables correctly. Essentially, for every town you are in you could have global variables assigned to it and when you are off in a dungeon it is easy to change those global variables for the town so that when the player returns to the town dialogue can be different. (not the best example but you get the idea).

    As far as capability, C2 is much more capable than it appears to new users. It runs games incredibly well except for some hiccups with a lot of physics. The event system is very powerful and can provide most of the meat and potatoes of any game library/language for writing specific game logic. It just has a learning curve at a certain point.

    Lastly, you will easily be able to deploy your game almost anywhere on almost any modern device!

  • As others have told you, yes C2 can make rpgs. The reason you haven't seen many is because RPGs are quite complex, and I'm afraid I must disagree with megatronx on this one, they are quite hard to make due to what Aphrodite said - they have a ton of interlocking systems that all need to work smoothly together. They look simple from the outside (I thought one would be simple to make too. Years later, it still boggles my mind how long my rpg has taken - but then again I had almost no game making experience at all when I started on it), but general opinion from those why try to actually make them is that they're one of the most difficult genres around (unless you're using a tool that has a lot of those rpg systems in place already, like rpg maker).

    Here's a video of the old construct classic version of my rpg (don't even start to consider using construct classic over C2 for an rpg. Trust me. There are reasons why I started over in C2 even after years of work - it's vastly superior and more stable than CC). The C2 version looks very similar to this, but the ui and stuff isn't done yet:

    [TUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNRi0xcwW_s[/TUBE]

  • As others have told you, yes C2 can make rpgs. The reason you haven't seen many is because RPGs are quite complex, and I'm afraid I must disagree with megatronx on this one, they are quite hard to make due to what Aphrodite said - they have a ton of interlocking systems that all need to work smoothly together. They look simple from the outside (I thought one would be simple to make too. Years later, it still boggles my mind how long my rpg has taken - but then again I had almost no game making experience at all when I started on it), but general opinion from those why try to actually make them is that they're one of the most difficult genres around (unless you're using a tool that has a lot of those rpg systems in place already, like rpg maker).

    Here's a video of the old construct classic version of my rpg (don't even start to consider using construct classic over C2 for an rpg. Trust me. There are reasons why I started over in C2 even after years of work - it's vastly superior and more stable than CC). The C2 version looks very similar to this, but the ui and stuff isn't done yet:

    I came across that video when I was searching around for information on using C2 for RPGs, and while I commend how polished it looks, it is quite different on a number of levels from what I'm planning.

    The reason I'm hesitant to use something like RPG Maker is that all of the games it produces seem to have a very Pokemon-style approach to the genre. There's a town area where the player directs an avatar to move around, sprites for every NPC, etc. I'm effectively eliminating that entire element of the game, since, for mobile, I find that the avatar movement mechanic is clunkier than what the HID allows for, and better paradigms for travel and world-interaction can be explored.

    When you say that they have a lot of "interlocking systems" that have to come together, do you mean that in a technical sense (getting objects to instantiate, interact, etc, properly from a programming perspective), or in a mechanical sense (make sure that a +1 to attack doesn't stack in a certain way to make characters be able to one hit everything)?

    If it's the latter, I've already developed the core system (Attributes, skills, to-hit stats, item balance, etc) to the point where I'm confident in the relative stability of the mathematics. You're not going to have a certain build that is superior to all others in every way. That's where my experience playing, modifying and more recently writing, tabletop (pen and paper) RPGs comes into play.

    If it's the former...well, there's simply work to be done there, though it seems like C2 handles events in an elegant enough fashion that it's less of an issue here than it could be.

    It's not hard, just time consuming. So you're making an rpg. That's really cool. Could you say more about yourself?

    There's not much to tell. I have half a degree in computer science (a minor, back in college), so I'm no stranger to programming. I spend a lot of time playing video games, but I've spent equal amounts of time playing pen and paper RPGs, so I know how those game systems work very intimately. I started out making homebrew material for D&D 3.5/OGL, and spent a little time making a ground-up conversion for the same rule set. Most recently, I've moved my own original tabletop system into its final phase of development, and I'm hoping to have that published by Q2 2014, likely with ePubs, since I don't have the budget for artists or layout designers, and have little expertise in either of those fields. Not that it matters, since I'm designing it as an extensible and modular generic system that others can build materials for or make conversions of. Kind of like FATE Core or Apocalypse World is built and licensed.

    For the video game RPG I'd like to make, I've designed what I think is a better way of interacting via touch screens, built a combat/stat system complete with leveling, items and powers that maintains simplicity, but still allows for multiple character builds (in a way I find more interesting than a standard skill tree).

    I'm not new to gaming, nor to software development, but the marriage of the two is uncharted territory for me.

  • Arima

    Well is it difficult or not depends on your own take on it. I can tell you from my experience that if you don't approach it as difficult, but rather with attitude that it is simple but might be challenging, then the only thing that stands between you and the finished rpg are how you plan it in advance and how much time you are willing to put in to it. Also on the side note can't wait for your finished game! :)

    @SamBeastie

    TO be completely frank with you, 95% of your game sounds like the game I'm developing now. Even for the same mobile related reasons. Shocker. I guess I will have to come up with more new ideas now that will differentiate it from yours!

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  • Arima

    Well is it difficult or not depends on your own take on it. I can tell you from my experience that if you don't approach it as difficult, but rather with attitude that it is simple but might be challenging, then the only thing that stands between you and the finished rpg are how you plan it in advance and how much time you are willing to put in to it. Also on the side note can't wait for your finished game! :)

    SamBeastie

    TO be completely frank with you, 90% of your game sounds like the game I'm developing now. Even for the same mobile related reasons. Shocker. I guess I will have to come up with more new ideas now that will differentiate it from yours!

    Hey, the more people trying to develop something better than an on-screen D-pad as a way of interacting with an RPG, the better. I honestly wish you the best of luck on that front...coming up with a metaphor I thought would work wasn't the easiest part of my work so far.

  • Thanks, you too. By metaphor do you mean a gameplay mechanics for the mobile?

    So your system is for post apocalyptic rpg?

  • Thanks, you too. By metaphor do you mean a gameplay mechanics for the mobile?

    So your system is for post apocalyptic rpg?

    Yes, I mean how one controls the character or party's actions in-game.

    And no, not post-apocalyptic.

  • Arima : Your game seems great I must say ^^, and it is cool to have your opinion, since you have experience in this domain.

    @SamBeastie : interlocking system in that case, means that your game will have parts that shouldn't be tied from a classic gameplay stand-point, I explain:

    A sidescroller will (not (or rarely..) became a Turn based fighting game, to become right after that a chess game, then once again a side-scroller.

    A RPG will(for example) be:

    -An overworld exploration, with rare objects that spawns

    -then a turnbased combat system, with mana management, life management, etc..

    -then again an overworld exploration

    -then a village with dialogues, shopping, etc..

    you get the idea I think, RPG isn't really a game category, since a gameplay standard don't exist in them, and everypart is different, it is like doing 5 to 6 games in one, with one thing that mix them together, so the whole thing makes sense (e.g.:The grass in pok?mon explain that there is a battle between pok?mon, a little house in dragon heart (on game boy) makes you enter a point and clic view with people interaction, when before, it was more like a FPS overworld view).

    Yes, RPGs are time consuming, yes, they are hard to do, but that's because RPGs aren't one simple game, but from 1 to "who knows" different style of gameplays and logics, tied in one block, called the "RPG game".

  • The reason I'm hesitant to use something like RPG Maker is that all of the games it produces seem to have a very Pokemon-style approach to the genre. There's a town area where the player directs an avatar to move around, sprites for every NPC, etc. I'm effectively eliminating that entire element of the game, since, for mobile, I find that the avatar movement mechanic is clunkier than what the HID allows for, and better paradigms for travel and world-interaction can be explored.

    Don't get me wrong, while it's more difficult, that's why I'm using C2 and not rpg maker myself - rm is just too limited and with C2 I can make my game exactly how I want it.

    hen you say that they have a lot of "interlocking systems" that have to come together, do you mean that in a technical sense (getting objects to instantiate, interact, etc, properly from a programming perspective), or in a mechanical sense (make sure that a +1 to attack doesn't stack in a certain way to make characters be able to one hit everything)?

    Well, both, but mainly the technical side from my experience (you still have to program the rules, after all).

    f it's the latter, I've already developed the core system (Attributes, skills, to-hit stats, item balance, etc) to the point where I'm confident in the relative stability of the mathematics. You're not going to have a certain build that is superior to all others in every way. That's where my experience playing, modifying and more recently writing, tabletop (pen and paper) RPGs comes into play.

    I'm not claiming your system isn't as good as you think it is, but you should probably be aware it's very common for people to code something and realize it doesn't play as well as they thought it would before they started - even people experienced in software and game development often encounter this problem, and is why some people like the idea of fluid game design rather than deciding everything about how the game is going to play before any code is written. Just something to be aware of that you might encounter.

    Well is it difficult or not depends on your own take on it. I can tell you from my experience that if you don't approach it as difficult, but rather with attitude that it is simple but might be challenging, then the only thing that stands between you and the finished rpg are how you plan it in advance and how much time you are willing to put in to it. Also on the side note can't wait for your finished game! :)

    Based upon the numerous reports I've read from other people attempting to develop RPGs and the very near unanimous opinions thereof that they simply are very close to the most difficult genre to make (only being beat out by stuff like mmorpgs and insanity like dwarf fortress) as well as my own experience already having tried to make loot pursuit with the attitude that it would be simple and having planned a ton of it in advance only to realize it didn't work how I thought it would once I tried to actually make it, I feel confident in objectively stating that attitude has nothing to do with it, RPGs are simply hard to make. Even with 5-6 years experience with construct (though I certainly don't claim to be the best C2 user, there are people who can easily code circles around me, I'm far better than I was when I started, having almost no idea what I was doing at all), there's just far too much involved in making an rpg to call it a simple task. I certainly understand how it would seem to be simple though, as I once thought that myself.

    Here's one of many, many examples of how things turn out to be more difficult than they seem like they might be. Tapping on a unit to select them on a touchscreen in battle. Seems easy enough, right? On object touched. Except that tapping isn't very accurate compared to a mouse, and as such the user can miss a unit easily, especially if they're small enough, even more so on a small screen like a phone. Ok, so then instead I tried an 'on touch, pick closest unit' event - except there were times where I would try to tap the ui and a unit would be selected. Ok, so I put all clickable elements in to a 'clickable' family and pick the nearest clickable to the touch. Except unit hotspots are at their feet, resulting in inaccurate picking again since people try to aim for the center of the sprite. Ok, so I add invisible clickable objects at the center of each unit to pick the nearest from. Except some ui elements and units are large/small enough that even tapping what seems like close enough to them will still select something else sometimes because of the distance of the hotspots. Ok, so then I divided the screen up into regions and pick the nearest clickable object based upon what region of the screen was tapped on. Great! It worked flawlessly. Until I tried to use two touches at once.

    Etc, etc... This is just one of a ton of examples.

    Also, thanks for the interest in the game. :)

  • OP

    yes you can make the intended game. I will chime in that RPG's are by the hardest to make. However, that is often related to all the mini systems in place and the fact the common RPG design has more content than anygame.

    However, if your game is more sandbox orientated I can see your project being more streamlined and easier to design.

    And to give credit to the OP. If he has playtested the the number crunching game then he should be fine. providing he doesn't deviate from the rules into the the stanard eRPG tropes.

    I think Knights of Pen and Paper does a great job to prove that a more classic RPG design, and simplified gameplay can still produce a pretty good rpg.

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