nw.dll weighs ~90mb of my 130 mb game, what is it?

  • I keep wondering when someone will create a Steam like portal for Nwjs.

    Done professionally that is.

  • I think the filesize stuff may have been forgotten about and not mentioned in any FAQ because as Ashley said, it's such a rare thing for people wanting to export to desktop ask wonder about, and yeah perhaps Scirra may have just never thought about adding it until now. On mobile, that gets asked a lot because of the limitations some stores have that limit the maximum size to like 50MB sometimes, whereas other places such as Steam, or even physical media such as a DVD, as far as I know, the filesize limits are waaaay higher. You are probably the first person to ask about .EXE filesizes.

    I do agree with the whole extremely limited testing with NW.JS.

    This also does get me thinking of a probably really bad idea, what if Scirra developed a sort of export where it expects the end-user to have a browser installed, and this export contains the runtime and media of your game as well as a .exe file, which upon opening, it does whatever C2 does to commence "Preview-On-Wifi" (ofcourse only locally because you can't expect the end-user to handle all the port forwarding and firewall stuff that needs to be configured), and then it automatically opens up a link on the Browser and plays. Personally I don't know if I would use this as I prefer what NW.JS provides, but at least the filesize would drop immensely. Hmmmmm...

  • Soloman, to answer your points:

    1. Go to the Scirra front page, click on "Learn More" then scroll down to Multiplatform Export where you will learn of the nw.js export for desktop. After reading this you would have to search google to learn about it if you were not familiar. You could also read some of Ashley's blogs like this blog about export options.

    Regarding your other point here, can you please explain what deals would be broken by such file sizes - you have not made this clear..? Just FYI, Elder Scroll Imperial Edition is >110Gb, so what upper limit are you referring to?

    2. If you can preview in Chrome then you can see what a nw.js export will run like. I am not sure what your reference about piracy is for exactly - but you should not expect to get everything for nothing when Scirra are running a business.

    3. Google search nw.js github, which should be a natural inquiry (see point 1). There is plenty of information on github. You are confused about file size and performance.

    4. You clearly do not understand what nw.js is - c2 only exports html5 and that exported product can then be wrapped by nw.js to be played on desktop. All of the c2 games on Steam are wrapped using nw.js in that way, and in spite of your concerns I am not aware of any buyer being worried about download file size.

    5. Yes, but c2 games cannot be played in a DVD player, so I presume you are considering selling DVDs with your game recorded inside. If so, they will still need to run on the operating system of choice - this is a html5 engine, remember, and all exported games need to be wrapped if they are not to run in a browser (see point 1). If you're concerned about your buyers running out of disk space then I think it's highly unlikely that a 100 Mb addition to any game will be of concern to someone with a 1Tb drive.

    It is worth also considering that you could also publish for Windows 10 directly....

  • Colludium

    Firstly I would appreciate if you would spell my handle name correctly. Only this way will I get a notice that you are reffering to me.

    Also I have the feeling after reading your post that you have not read my previous post with full understanding. I would suggest you reread it once again, so I dont keep having to repeat myself. I am in no way trying to be mean here but only stating what I notice.

    [quote:u123dul9]

    1. Go to the Scirra front page, click on "Learn More" then scroll down to Multiplatform Export where you will learn of the nw.js export for desktop. After reading this you would have to search google to learn about it if you were not familiar. You could also read some of Ashley's blogs like this blog about export options.

    1. You have to be joking. I am to go around and search around for additional information regarding software that I have to purchase on additional sites that are in no way directl affiliated with Scirra? How am I to know what sort of information I am looking for? How the heck can I find information regarding extra additional file size when exporting to NW.js? How is a beginner coder that is buying a product based on what he reads, on the opinions on the forums and on what he can access in the free/trail/demo product supposed to find this out?

    [quote:u123dul9]Regarding your other point here, can you please explain what deals would be broken by such file sizes - you have not made this clear..? Just FYI, Elder Scroll Imperial Edition is >110Gb, so what upper limit are you referring to?

    Please re-read my previous post, especially the questions. I have made eveything very clear.

    [quote:u123dul9]2. If you can preview in Chrome then you can see what a nw.js export will run like. I am not sure what your reference about piracy is for exactly - but you should not expect to get everything for nothing when Scirra are running a business.

    2. Again you have missed my point here entirely. Please go back and reread my previous post. I am not expecting everything for nothing - I have paid for the program the exact amount that Scirra asked for. What are you talking about? What do you mean you are not sure what I am referencing in regards to piracy in my previous post? It is there in the post if you are not sure go read it again to be sure.

    Besides I do not have a Chrome browser installed nor will I. My preference at this time is Firefox.

    [quote:u123dul9]3. Google search nw.js github, which should be a natural inquiry (see point 1). There is plenty of information on github. You are confused about file size and performance.

    3. No Ive no idea what github is, and I did not know when I was buying Construct 2. Why should I know or care what it is if I want to use Construct 2? Again you are totally missing the point.

    [quote:u123dul9]4. You clearly do not understand what nw.js is - c2 only exports html5 and that exported product can then be wrapped by nw.js to be played on desktop. All of the c2 games on Steam are wrapped using nw.js in that way, and in spite of your concerns I am not aware of any buyer being worried about download file size.

    4. I do not care if noone in the world is worried about this. It is not of my concern if Im the only one in the whole world or whole universe that is concerned about this. As it is me that is concerned about this, this is important to me.

    Please read my previous post once more. I will not explain it once more, it would be too much writing.

    [quote:u123dul9]5. Yes, but c2 games cannot be played in a DVD player, so I presume you are considering selling DVDs with your game recorded inside. If so, they will still need to run on the operating system of choice - this is a html5 engine, remember, and all exported games need to be wrapped if they are not to run in a browser (see point 1). If you're concerned about your buyers running out of disk space then I think it's highly unlikely that a 100 Mb addition to any game will be of concern to someone with a 1Tb drive.

    5. Um... yes of course that is what I meant, selling DVDs/CDs with my game recorded. Why are you even mentioning this here if this is not the point of the discussion? Why are you assuming that I want a game that is run straight from DVD? Where did I mention that?

    [quote:u123dul9]

    It is worth also considering that you could also publish for Windows 10 directly....

    Why are you even mentioning Windows 10 here? Where did I mention this as an issue?

    Please re-read the prevous post as your points here are all totally missed.

    I have a request to anyone that is to post in this thread, please can you read my posts with understanding and only post in this thread if you have something constructive to say and bring about (for example Jase00 in the post above had some very good insight).

    Do not willingly or unwillingly derail the thread or bloat this thread by asking unrelevant questions.

    This thread is not about chatting for the sake of chatting but to get some relevant information. I would like to get to know a couple of matters as a customer.

    The questions in my previous post are directed Ashley, this is not a matter of people from the forum jumping in to defend Construct 2.

    I would like for Ashley to reply to what I have written.

  • Solomon

    How would you like to see it advertised? Maybe something like a * on the desktop bullet point on the front page and then a foot note or fine print that says "* adds 150mb of runtime to your product"?

  • OK Solomon, all of my points were meant to directly address your questions, some of which had been repeatedly answered already... If someone doesn't understand your meaning then it's not traditional to blame the reader for any ensuing confusion.

  • Windows 10 is a viable alternative for desktop.

    Yes its is Edge, yes its just Windows 10, but universal apps can be sideloaded.

    I'm sorry you are having such a time with this, but for many of us the ability to export to desktop didn't even exist when we opted in.

    One thing you should think about is your target audience, in the big picture desktop is a small percentage, and delivery systems are changing, even for consoles.

    Btw you don't have to purchase a license to use Nwjs.

  • Why is this information not in a FAQ or anywhere that is visible? Why have potiential C2 licence buyers, like myself before purchasing C2 licence, have not been informed about this?

    Because I don't think it matters. I don't think it makes any meaningful difference for downloading, installing or runtime performance. What meaningful difference do you think it makes? If it doesn't make any material difference, I don't see why it deserves to be specifically highlighted.

    If you still wanted to distribute on CD then the compressed overhead is under 10%, which seems reasonable. It's about 1% for DVD, which I think it's fair to say is negligible. Your stated estimated final size of 300mb will still fit comfortably on a 650mb CD with room to spare, even including the overhead of NW.js, so I'm not sure why you're worried about this. Still, I was under the impression most of the industry had already moved to online delivery for games - it saves the cost and logistical difficulties of burning discs, packaging them, and making international post deliveries. I'd imagine most gamers are already accustomed to large install sizes too - GTA V on PC requires 65 GB!

  • I think this post can be written off as trolling or spam. The final size makes no difference whatsover to performance. Some games are in the 10's of gigabytes.. so what. Get over it, make a game people want to play.

  • Eisenhans - yes that would do. Not 150 but ~60 mb to your runtime.

    @Colludium - I appologise if you took it that way, but I wanted to strictly keep on point with these threads.

    @newt - I understand Win10 being of an option, but I think you can understand my point better once you read the underlined bottom part of my latest post where I am comming from.

    @Spongehammer - the problem with people today that they stopped caring for what they believe in. That is one of the resons you see this as trolling. Either that or you are simply too lazy to read all the posts in this thread. Dont want to read? Fine, but then you are not entitled to post your opinion, otherwise it should be immediately rendered as immaterial, as you are posting without understanding.

    I sure wouldnt want to be your customer with your attitude.

    @Ashley

    Once again you seem to not answer my questions. Once more I am asking you to reply to my questions as they are regarding your product that I have purchased from you, and information you have provided me. If you dont want to answer these I only ask that you provide a reason why you do not want or intend to answer these questions (the ones that you failed to adress).

    Certainly you can find 10 minutes to read and reply to this as I am one of your customers? Surely your customers are of importance to you?

    I am once more posting them here:

    [quote:3ucp42ty]1) How is it that this information is nowhere to be learned - the fact that NW.js is 60-90 mb larger once exported.

    Again saying that I could use html5 as a substitute does not cut it as these do not work under the same conditions - NW.js being straight out of desktop, and html5 needing to be exported to the web. Can you imagine that for some this is a deal breaker? Also some people - like me for example do not want to publish to web. I only hope you dont start talking about how its better to publish to web, because as you know this thread is not about the reasons for publishing to web or not.

    2) Why is there no way to test out NW.js export even under very strict limitations and still not inform people about the additional mb's?

    Saying stuff about piracy here I dont think will be adequate as Ive read information - here on Scirra forums, that people use 3rd party wrappers to export games from their free version of C2. I dont know how that works or even if its true but that is what Ive read.

    3) Why is there no information about this size increase and that altough this increase in size is there, it will in no way possible affect performance (only download times). That this has to be learned by spending 1 day on the forum - and by asking around.

    4) How can you compare hmtl5 export to NW.js export (especially to a customer that does not want to use html5) when both differ in the process of export and I imagine in the process of distribution.

    5) Is it possible to distribute a html5 exported game from C2 on DVD? ( why do I have the feeling that you will write about NW.js being 60-90 mb bigger will be of no problem on Dvd - but again that was not the question - remember it is you who suggested html5 export if I dont like the +60~90 mb).

    Now moving on to your latest post:

    [quote:3ucp42ty]Because I don't think it matters. I don't think it makes any meaningful difference for downloading, installing or runtime performance. What meaningful difference do you think it makes? If it doesn't make any material difference, I don't see why it deserves to be specifically highlighted.

    So you are saying that something that is happening and giving a game extra weight in mb. you think does not make any meaningful difference for downloading? Are you even reading what you are writing? For a 5mb game it is ~60 mb additional space for win32.

    So instead of having a game that has 5mb I end up with a game that has 65mb. That is a 1200% increase in its size! 1200%!

    I am not asking you about internet speed norms. How can that be that I have a 1200% bigger file in size, and you just brush this off because you think that its not important? Its not your game is it so you might not think it matters. But these are your tools that you have marketed to me, and failed to mention something that is of great importance to me. Do you still not see this?

    Imagine if a bank took 60 dollars for every loan from 1 dollar to infinity. They would not tell their customers because they wouldnt think that, oh well it doesnt matter to the people running the bank. How about taking 600 dollars from each 10 dollars up? Still not convinced?

    How about this:

    I am a customer of Scirra and to this issue matters to me. As I am your customer and I am paying you for everything I expect from what information is provided and the free version I am testing out. Now if this matters to me - your customer - does it still now not matter to you?

    Remember it is not you making my game, it is still me making my game using your software. Now its my turn to make use of it.

    If you still say that this does not matter to you how does this make you look in terms of your priorities as a business?

    You think it doesnt matter to inform potential customers about the downsides of using your software? Not giving them a chance to get to know this in the free version, or to read this anywhere on the site? Is this good marketing ethics you think? Do you still think that this is of no importance?

    Why are you talking about industry standards and comparing GTA? What do I care if people are downloading gazzilions of gb through the internet?

    What If I was to do something else and that was the reason I have purchased your software? What If I wanted only to create a game to distribute only on an old school floppy disk, and that because of the lack of information regarding your product I have been working on a game and have lost all kinds of resources? Time, potential client and potential freelance gig?

    Does that still not matter to you?

    I am talking about something you did not mention anywhere to customers and now are trying to downplay as of no importance.

    To sum this up. This was about file size at first, but it ended up being mostly about principles and good business ethics.

    Now I would like you to refer to this post and show me what you stand for.

    I like Construct 2 for what it is, a solid piece of software, robust easy with a nice event system. And this comes from a total newbie when it comes to programing.

    But I also like working within a transparent enviroment, one that has good principles and business ethics.

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  • On the front page:

    "Export your game to desktop PC, Mac and Linux apps by using the Node-Webkit wrapper.

    You can also reach the popular iOS and Android app stores using wrappers with built-in support."

    The mention of wrappers should already inform potential game-devs of the situation. Unless people don't understand what wrappers are...

  • I can really understand your frustration, it's hard to get a point across when you are standing on your own, as nobody else really cares about filesize on NW.JS. It sort of seems as though you may need to give a reason why you think that information should be provided, I mean I'm sure there's certain cases, maybe someone might want to distribute to an area where they have extremely limited bandwidth or something extreme and specific. Although it might be a bad idea to explain your own personal reason because it might become a backwards and forwards conversation with people that go "Well why not do this instead?" "No I can't do that" "Well what about this?", even if you know 100% that filesize matters in your situation. Maybe it's a tricky thing for Scirra to decide what information to put out because they will always miss something, maybe in the future a similar situation is going to occur where someone buys the software and realises something specific about one of the full versions features (can't think of a random example but I hope I make sense).

    Although one things for sure, it'd help a lot to have the free version give a limited export option. At least you can then retrieve all the information you want, knowing that when you buy the full version, the watermark goes and time limits go and everything is exactly as you'd expect.

  • I'm C2 user/customer, working on game right now. I do have my thoughts about making the game as light as possible size wise, but of course without sacrificing performance or function, just like Eisenhans said. And besides nowadays most devices have a huge amount of memory installed + memory card slots, PCs even with Terabytes.

  • Silverforce - no, the mention of wrappers is too little to let people know about the additional filesize.

    I can bet you had no idea untill you did some research afterwards, and not before purchasing. Either that or you had been a dev earlier and already had some info regarding game dev.

    As an example you would think that people would know that the chemicals in processed foods are bad for them and they would know what each ingredient on the box where the product ingredients are specified is (the coded numbers). Especially since this is going into your body which should be more important than anything right? Wrong.

    Have you been a market customer longer or a game dev longer? Do you know what are the chemicals in your veggies/fruits/processed foods/breads etc. etc. ? Did you know that the meat you buy in supermarkets is about 60% meat and about 40% water, antibiotics, vitamins and other crapola that increases the weight fo the meat so the price is more expensive? How long have you been a meat eater?

    This is simillar, how should I know where to search to find how much mb extra would my game have?

    Where do you suggest I had looked for to know that my file will be 60mb bigger?

    Lets get one thing straight - visual programming mostly focuses on the newbie market. Do you expect newbies to know such information?

    You have written: "potential game-devs" - Construct 2 as you know gets you results instantly, thus newbie can export straight away and become a dev. And whats the fastest way? Nw.js! But without surprises please..

    Please dont make me repeat myself that I have researched all the info I could forums+main scirra page+(!)free construct 2(!)

    @Jase00

    Yes you are right, especially since 99% of folks here are for mobile/html5 dev.

    I just did give a reason in my previous post. The idea to create a game strictly for floppy and distribute it in limited amounts in limited situations for limited public spaces. Is that not a good reason? How can one achieve that having an +60mb increase in volume?

    Another reason?

    Making a game for charity for 3rd world countries where they dont have gazillion/s speed fibre wire internet. Seems legit?

    You have my respect for looking at this objectivly in regards to the NW.js export. At least someone else is not afraid to speak their mind on this forum.

    Even if all that has been said by me in this theard was wrong and utter bull, at least the part of having limited NW.js export would solve all my questions (and the questions of others aswell).

    Lets face it, the bottom line is that now everyone interested will know about the +60mb for win32 and +90mb for win64 to your exported NW.js filesize, by finding this thread. In a way I have accomplished what I have preached.

    This thread was missing once I was about to purchase Construct 2 strictly for NW.js export.

  • You're determined to rhetorically divide the size of your final game into the regular content and the "additional" content from nw.js - in fact you keep using that word "additional" over and over again. But that breakdown seems arbitrary to me. All game builds will end up using some space for assets and other space for engine and engine libraries. Both are part of the game, neither is an extraneous addition. Scirra shouldn't really have to specifically point out that the engine will take up space any more than they should have to tell you the other assets (graphics, music, etc.) will.

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