Understanding subscription

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    > However this is ignoring the fact the subscription model is very affordably priced and fair!

    >

    For most people it is not the money - they would pay more, even at a loss - because they loath subscriptions.

    Humans are just weird like that - lol.

    And by the way it is dearer than my Adobe sub.

    Considering the fact that Adobe Photography, the cheapest Adobe service, is $9.99 a month, and C3 is $8.25 a month, I believe your case is either incorrectly calculated, or an outlier.

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    > >

    > > However this is ignoring the fact the subscription model is very affordably priced and fair!

    > >

    >

    > For most people it is not the money - they would pay more, even at a loss - because they loath subscriptions.

    >

    > Humans are just weird like that - lol.

    >

    > And by the way it is dearer than my Adobe sub.

    >

    Considering the fact that Adobe Photography, the cheapest Adobe service, is $9.99 a month, and C3 is $8.25 a month, I believe your case is either incorrectly calculated, or an outlier.

    Yes but if you let your subscription expire to adobe you still have your pictures that can be edited in another program. You will not be able to edit your C3 games without maintaining the subscription.

    See the difference?

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  • Yes but if you let your subscription expire to adobe you still have your pictures that can be edited in another program. You will not be able to edit your C3 games without maintaining the subscription.

    See the difference?

    Ps uses a proprietary file type for projects that can be exported as other file types.

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    > Yes but if you let your subscription expire to adobe you still have your pictures that can be edited in another program. You will not be able to edit your C3 games without maintaining the subscription.

    >

    > See the difference?

    >

    Ps uses a proprietary file type for projects that can be exported as other file types.

    There are all kinds of online conversions that will convert psd to jpg or any other format for editing.

    Is there any to convert a C3 file to one you can edit on other engines?

  • Yes but if you let your subscription expire to adobe you still have your pictures that can be edited in another program. You will not be able to edit your C3 games without maintaining the subscription.

    See the difference?

    Isn't that obvious? It uses a propriety file type.

    This same limitation applies to Photoshop - sure there are other image editors than can open .psd; but none provides the true 1:1 full feature conversion that Photoshop can offer, and they fall out of date whenever new features are introduced. This isn't even getting into the fact that 3rd party software can actually break .psds, so making a file in Photoshop, saving it as a .psd, opening it in Gimp, editing it some more, saving it again, and then re-opening in Photoshop; could result in a corrupted file.

    Like Adobe's products, the editor itself is one of the many services you're getting by paying the C3 subscription. As it's an going, ever improving product that's being added to - a one off payment simply doesn't make sense from a business (and some would say ethical) standpoint.

    You don't begrudge Adobe for this practice? Why Scirra?

    Your argument is that users need to be able to edit their games post-subscription because publisher contracts demand that games purchased must be updated regularly, this doesn't hold water for two reasons:

    1) Scirra is not responsible for the business decisions of it's users.

    2) I have worked in creative software development for years. I have worked with and for game publishers, including HTML5 publishers. In all that time, I have never once seen a contract that stated the need for maintenance of the product purchased that was not:

    a) Compensated for in the initial purchase order.

    b) Stipulated to be carried out at a set fee, often an hourly rate plus associated costs . Which in this case would be the C3 subscription.

    c) Included as part of a retainer fee agreed with the developer.

    Unless there has suddenly been an influx of publishers that don't play by these standards, I'd consider your case to be a rarity. At the very least I certainly wouldn't work with these publishers!

  • >

    > Yes but if you let your subscription expire to adobe you still have your pictures that can be edited in another program. You will not be able to edit your C3 games without maintaining the subscription.

    >

    > See the difference?

    >

    Isn't that obvious? It uses a propriety file type.

    This same limitation applies to Photoshop - sure there are other image editors than can open .psd; but none provides the true 1:1 full feature conversion that Photoshop can offer, and they fall out of date whenever new features are introduced. This isn't even getting into the fact that 3rd party software can actually break .psds, so making a file in Photoshop, saving it as a .psd, opening it in Gimp, editing it some more, saving it again, and then re-opening in Photoshop; could result in a corrupted file.

    Like Adobe's products, the editor itself is one of the many services you're getting by paying the C3 subscription. As it's an going, ever improving product that's being added to - a one off payment simply doesn't make sense from a business (and some would say ethical) standpoint.

    You don't begrudge Adobe for this practice? Why Scirra?

    Your argument is that users need to be able to edit their games post-subscription because publisher contracts demand that games purchased must be updated regularly, this doesn't hold water for two reasons:

    1) Scirra is not responsible for the business decisions of it's users.

    2) I have worked in creative software development for years. I have worked with and for game publishers, including HTML5 publishers. In all that time, I have never once seen a contract that stated the need for maintenance of the product purchased that was not:

    a) Compensated for in the initial purchase order.

    b) Stipulated to be carried out at a set fee, often an hourly rate plus associated costs . Which in this case would be the C3 subscription.

    c) Included as part of a retainer fee agreed with the developer.

    Unless there has suddenly been an influx of publishers that don't play by these standards, I'd consider your case to be a rarity. At the very least I certainly wouldn't work with these publishers!

    Oh good grief- here we go again!

    Many publisher require in their contract that the author do any maintenance and bug fixes on their games. You already admitted that in an earlier post.

    You can easily convert psd to any other format to edit if you drop your adobe subscription.

    You will not be able to edit your C3 projects for new versions or other games if Scirra goes out of business, stops renewing subscriptions or you drop your subscription.

    Tom has made that clear:

    Tom wrote:

    • If your subscription expires, you will not be able to edit the game (but you can open them in read only mode)
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    > >

    > > Yes but if you let your subscription expire to adobe you still have your pictures that can be edited in another program. You will not be able to edit your C3 games without maintaining the subscription.

    > >

    > > See the difference?

    > >

    >

    > Ps uses a proprietary file type for projects that can be exported as other file types.

    >

    There are all kinds of online conversions that will convert psd to jpg or any other format for editing.

    Is there any to convert a C3 file to one you can edit on other engines?

    Sure, just like they did with psd.

    They just have to look up what all the functions do and make an editor to edit it.

    Of course there's been 20+ years for people to figure it out.

    Someone already tried it with C2.

    It didn't go well. Legal issues, pita to do, etc.

    That's the thing with proprietary software.

  • Oh good grief- here we go again!

    Many publisher require in their contract that the author do any maintenance and bug fixes on their games. You already admitted that in an earlier post.

    Yes, are you missing the part where developers are compensated for this? Your subscription is an operating cost of your business. You wouldn't cry to your energy provider to give you free electricity because you need to update your game, why on Earth would you think Scirra should be different?

    The editor is a service.

  • Then the answer is no- you will not be able to edit your games created in C3 if Scirra goes out of business, stops renewing subscriptions or you let your subscription expire.

    Some game designers put many hours and lots of money into designing a game format, mechanics, graphics and music that they want to use over and over for new versions, series and new games and any thing that could lock a game down so it can not be edited is a threat to their business model unless you want to recreate everything from scratch for a new engine.

    It also could cause legal problems for game designers that license to a publisher that requires in their contract that the designer does all maintenance and bug repairs.

    That is my point!

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    >

    > Oh good grief- here we go again!

    >

    > Many publisher require in their contract that the author do any maintenance and bug fixes on their games. You already admitted that in an earlier post.

    >

    >

    Yes, are you missing the part where developers are compensated for this? Your subscription is an operating cost of your business. You wouldn't cry to your energy provider to give you free electricity because you need to update your game, why on Earth would you think Scirra should be different?

    The editor is a service.

    Being compensated is irrelevant and if your contract requires it and you can't do it because you can not edit the game due to Scirra going out of business, not renewing your subscription or letting it expire guess who is liable?

    I know you are all hyped for C3 but you have not addressed that issue and neither has Scirra to my satisfaction so enjoy your copy of C3 but please stop selling it to other people that it may not be the best choice for.

  • The discussions seem to be becoming more cyclical, with a little frustration setting in also.

    Might be time to just step back a little and reflect. Maybe next week will bring a little more clarity.

    Thanks.

  • Being compensated is irrelevant and if your contract requires it and you can't do it because you can not edit the game due to Scirra going out of business, not renewing your subscription or letting it expire guess who is liable?

    If Scirra go out of business? Literally no one.

    There's this entire contract law concept called "impossibility". In the event someone submits a claim of breach of contract, the defendant can argue that circumstances have changed to such a degree from when the contract was agreed that the terms are now impossible to abide by.

    The defendant would then win, because impossibility is a legal slam dunk.

    Somewhat hilariously, if C3 was non-propriety like you're asking for, the defendant could actually lose, because it could be argued that you could edit the software through a convoluted third party method.

    Now if it's because you didn't renew your subscription, well I refer you to my previous post:

    [quote:z0qocwzj]Your subscription is an operating cost of your business. You wouldn't cry to your energy provider to give you free electricity because you need to update your game, why on Earth would you think Scirra should be different?

    The editor is a service.

  • The discussions seem to be becoming more cyclical, with a little frustration setting in also.

    Might be time to just step back a little and reflect. Maybe next week will bring a little more clarity.

    Thanks.

    I was thinking more sinusoidal.

    But yeah this is all getting really depressing.

  • >

    > >

    > > Yes but if you let your subscription expire to adobe you still have your pictures that can be edited in another program. You will not be able to edit your C3 games without maintaining the subscription.

    > >

    > > See the difference?

    > >

    >

    > Ps uses a proprietary file type for projects that can be exported as other file types.

    >

    There are all kinds of online conversions that will convert psd to jpg or any other format for editing.

    Is there any to convert a C3 file to one you can edit on other engines?

    There's InDesign, After Effects, Premiere, by the way, all proprietary. Photoshop is slightly different in that it has best back-compatibility among the aforementioned CC progs. But all proprietary nevertheless, and the conversion of PSD to another layered format is a bit tricky, since PSDs do potentially have loads of different data (layer masks, effects, smart objects, etc).

  • >

    > >

    > > However this is ignoring the fact the subscription model is very affordably priced and fair!

    > >

    >

    > For most people it is not the money - they would pay more, even at a loss - because they loath subscriptions.

    >

    > Humans are just weird like that - lol.

    >

    > And by the way it is dearer than my Adobe sub.

    >

    Considering the fact that Adobe Photography, the cheapest Adobe service, is $9.99 a month, and C3 is $8.25 a month, I believe your case is either incorrectly calculated, or an outlier.

    EDIT ah OK my calculator works but not my glasses, I thought the personal licence would not let you sell your games - lol.

    The point I was making is that people will pay more than the sub to avoid having the sub - they HATE them. Weird I know

    But anyhow, what zenox98 said....

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